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Re: [lojban] Re: Are Natlang the best case for entropy in communication ?



On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 2:53 AM, Escape Landsome <escaaape@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can think of no case where "very different concepts are given very near
> phonological forms". It is true that there are many cmavo which are very
> nearly the same, such as FA, SE, etc., but all of these groupings are very
> closely related to each other, differing in very minor ways.
>
> Your own example of the so'V series is not nearly as "different" as you seem
> to think. Each of them is a point on the scale All-None, exclusive. The only
> difference is where on that scale each is, with so'a being closest to All,
> and so'u closest to None.

The paradigm is the same (all so'V are related to scale All-None) but
inside this paradigmatic choice, they are very distinct.

All is not at all the same thing as None or as Few, and if somebody is
not well heard when saying the word, the consequences are great !

As if I said [ x = 0% ], [ x = 10% ], [ x = 100% ], and all the onus
of communication lied on the real variable near the percent sign...
Communication would be in great risk to be lost.

In the case of natlang some redundancy is set to avoid this, namely
the "f-" or "few" opposes the "n-" of "none", but also "-ew" of "few"
opposes "-one" of "none", so that, if ever one phonem is not well
understood, the other ones are there to save the day.

Except that is not the case.

Which of the following cases of listener mishearing would you consider to be of greater consequence?

"I have two sheep because I'm tired."

{lonu lo citri cu na morji piso'uroi cu gasnu lonu lo citri cu rapli}

>> And : << Does not the fact natlangs do not have this problem generally
>> speaking imply that they are more well designed than lojban on this
>> particular point ? >>
>
>
> I don't think so, mainly because, being NATlangs, they weren't designed at
> all. I highly doubt that the phonological properties of words were ever
> taken into account during the etymological evolution of those languages. In
> fact, there is ample evidence to the contrary, as there are many cases where
> words that are /extremely/ different concepts have /extremely/ similar
> phonotactics, such as the English to, too, and two. I would argue that
> mistaking, for example, "bow" (either the act-of or the ship-part, but not
> the clothing) and "now", or "to" and "too" is much more damaging to listener
> comprehension than mistaking "so'a" for "so'u".


Natlangs were designed, but the designer is a non-human (and
non-divine) random process of natural selection.   Natural selection
favorises random creations, but random creations naturally occupy the
phonological space smoothly and in a sparse way, so one can say,
natural selection naturally designs words that are good for efficient
communication.

Based entirely on my own experience with English, I would have to disagree. I do not consider English at all suited for "efficient communication".

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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