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Re: [lojban] baby words: position/shape, or something.
Robin Lee Powell wrote:
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 06:55:20PM -0400, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
Robin Lee Powell wrote:
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 11:39:57AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
I'm honestly surprised that 1) we don't have a gismu for this
concept, and 2) that no one's really noticed it until recently.
I would think this concept would be a well-used one.
That's starting to be my feeling as well; I think it deserves a
gismu.
The easy answer to "does it deserve a gismu" is : Does any
language (and in particular our source languages) express this
concept in a single word? If not, then it is hard to claim that
it is so basic a concept as to warrant one.
I would be very surprised if you could find a language that *didn't*
have a word like English's "position" in "you changed position!".
Did you have some in mind?
I didn't consider the word "position" - it has numerous meanings
associated with location in space, not necessarily even referring to
location relative to other objects, or to other parts of the same
object. It isn't clear which of them are basic. I'm not sure whether
"position" can be used in all the applications you have in mind, but
perhaps.
The root "pose", might also be relevant, though we don't use it for the
range of purposes that you are seeking. Likewise "posture". (But is
"pose" derived from "position" or vice versa).
Similarly, we have an unrelated word, "attitude" that is used for some
of your applications, but again it has another meaning unrelated to
physical positioning, and it isn't clear which is the basic one.
I did a quick look on Google for translations from English into
non-Latinate languages, and include the back translations of the words
it gave me:
Greek:
θέση position, place, post, status, situation, site
τοποθεσία location, site, position, locality, situation
Russian:
позиция position, item, stance, attitude, stand, side
положение position, situation, provision, status, location, state
место place, space, position, seat, site, spot
состояние state, condition, status, situation, fortune, position
поза pose, posture, position, attitude, stance, plant
Vietnamese:
chổ place, position, location, space, seat, room
vị trí position, lay, location, locus, terrain, stand
tư thế posture, position
Finnish
asema position, status, station, situation, place, standing
sijainti location, position, situation, locality, site, lay
asento position, posture, set, setting, attitude, stance
tilanne situation, status, position, things, picture, state of affairs
paikka place, location, position, site, seat, point
The Greek seems to have a single root, but I don't think it is the
concept you have in mind. The other languages have a variety of roots.
I'm not sure what to conclude.
Notice that looking up a word in multiple languages gives you a variety
of synonyms, several of which clearly correspond to some of the gismu.
This might be a useful trick for future problem-concepts - express it in
English and then look at the words that Google translate comes up with
and their back-translations.
lojbab
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