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Re: [lojban] baby words: position/shape, or something.



Robin Lee Powell wrote:
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 06:55:20PM -0400, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
Robin Lee Powell wrote:
On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 11:39:57AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
I'm honestly surprised that 1) we don't have a gismu for this
concept, and 2) that no one's really noticed it until recently.
I would think this concept would be a well-used one.

That's starting to be my feeling as well; I think it deserves a
gismu.

The easy answer to "does it deserve a gismu" is :  Does any
language (and in particular our source languages) express this
concept in a single word?  If not, then it is hard to claim that
it is so basic a concept as to warrant one.

I would be very surprised if you could find a language that *didn't*
have a word like English's "position" in "you changed position!".
Did you have some in mind?

I didn't consider the word "position" - it has numerous meanings associated with location in space, not necessarily even referring to location relative to other objects, or to other parts of the same object. It isn't clear which of them are basic. I'm not sure whether "position" can be used in all the applications you have in mind, but perhaps.

The root "pose", might also be relevant, though we don't use it for the range of purposes that you are seeking. Likewise "posture". (But is "pose" derived from "position" or vice versa).

Similarly, we have an unrelated word, "attitude" that is used for some of your applications, but again it has another meaning unrelated to physical positioning, and it isn't clear which is the basic one.

I did a quick look on Google for translations from English into non-Latinate languages, and include the back translations of the words it gave me:

Greek:
θέση	position, place, post, status, situation, site
τοποθεσία	location, site, position, locality, situation

Russian:
позиция	position, item, stance, attitude, stand, side
положение	position, situation, provision, status, location, state
место	place, space, position, seat, site, spot
состояние	state, condition, status, situation, fortune, position
поза	pose, posture, position, attitude, stance, plant

Vietnamese:
chổ	place, position, location, space, seat, room
vị trí	position, lay, location, locus, terrain, stand
tư thế	posture, position

Finnish
asema	position, status, station, situation, place, standing
sijainti	location, position, situation, locality, site, lay
asento	position, posture, set, setting, attitude, stance
tilanne	situation, status, position, things, picture, state of affairs
paikka	place, location, position, site, seat, point

The Greek seems to have a single root, but I don't think it is the concept you have in mind. The other languages have a variety of roots.

I'm not sure what to conclude.

Notice that looking up a word in multiple languages gives you a variety of synonyms, several of which clearly correspond to some of the gismu. This might be a useful trick for future problem-concepts - express it in English and then look at the words that Google translate comes up with and their back-translations.


lojbab

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