Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Sid <cntrational@gmail.com> wrote:

The problem with that is that "gender" is a real life concept -- it
doesn't cease to exist just because you've made a word that covers a
broader topic. I don't think people would have submissiveness or
furriness built in in the same way that gender is built in into
people, so it's a strange idea for things that wouldn't be counted as
"gender" in most conversation to be treated like other genders.

Assuming you meant "have" instead of "would have", I disagree; more precisely, I do not believe that there is strong evidence that the difference between "being dominant" and "being female" is not just a difference in the amount/frequency of reinforcement the current societal context provides.

Not to say that the word is a bad idea, of course, just that it's not
a good replacement for "gender".

Do you have a definition for "gender" which does not involve (explicit or implicit, e.g. by falling back to "sex") enumeration and so does not preclude genders besides "male" and "female" (which exist in some societies), but which rules out things like "submissive" and "raccoon" as identities? I can't, so I defer to you. Besides, if we use such a general word, we could form a tanru/lujvo between {cinse} and it for the more conventional meaning of "gender".

mi'e cntr

On 12 July 2012 17:11, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
> What if we discarded the idea of a word for "gender" and coined a term for
> something that subsumes the concept. I don't particularly like {ceinse} for
> being too much like {cinse}, but that's a small detail.
>
> How about:
> x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to x3
>
> Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm putting a
> tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying something more like
> {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't make sense.) and {tu'a lo
> tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a submissive" or {tu'a lo arxokuna
> mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:12 AM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Let us take as the premise of the discussion that we are creating a new
>> selbri that will express gender. Perhaps it's a new gismu; perhaps we're
>> changing {cinse}. I currently favor making a type-4 fu'ivla {ceinse}.
>> This detail is largely irrelevant, however. Assume it can and may be
>> done: what exactly shall be done?
>>
>> The most important places of a selbri are the x1 and x2, for different
>> reasons. x1 is the most accessible to LE; in my opinion the most useful
>> gender-related noun is the gender question. x1 is a gender.
>>
>> x2 is the most accessible in the face of SE. The ideal selbri should be
>> constructed in such a way that if you want exactly two of its places,
>> almost always one of them is x2. I believe that x2 should be that which
>> is gendered.
>>
>> So far we have: x1 is a/the gender of x2.
>>
>> As I'm sure you're all aware, Gender is Really Complicated. In practice,
>> that probably means that it should be treated as fundamentally
>> subjective. Therefore, x3 should be the one who
>> judges/classifies/assigns a gender. For gender identity, this will be
>> the same as x2 -- the gender is self-assigned.
>>
>>
>> Gender is multifaceted. x4 is the aspect in which x2 is gendered, or the
>> action by which x3 assigns a gender or expresses a gender judgment. x4
>> answers the question "in what sense"?
>>
>> Sex and gender, while certainly not identical, also cannot be entirely
>> disentangled, and our understanding of the distinction and relationship
>> may evolve over time. There may be more than two members in the set that
>> includes them. Therefore, I believe that we should not enshrine the
>> distinction by giving them separate selbri; rather, sex is a particular
>> x4. When a biologist identifies the sex of an animal, we could say
>> {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre le xadni}, or (context willing) {lo skepre te
>> ceinse lo danlu}.
>>
>> Note that x4 is not an action by which a gender determination is
>> reached; it would be incorrect to say {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre lo nu
>> catlu lo plibu}, unless the scientist is in the habit of looking at the
>> genitals of animals of certain sexes but not of animals of other sexes.
>>
>> There is no default value for x4. An omitted x4 must be construed from
>> context.
>>
>>
>> This is intended to cover a broad and complex topic, so there are
>> several possible glosses.
>>
>> x1 is a gender under system/theory x4.
>> x2 has a gender.
>> x2 is gendered/assigned a gender.
>> x3 assigns/construes/treats x2 as gender x1 in respect/by action x4.
>> x1 is x2's gender.
>> x2 performs gender role x1 in respect/by action x4.
>>
>>
>> Feedback is hereby solicited. In particular, are there things one might
>> want to say about sex or gender that this place structure could not
>> easily express?
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
>
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