Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.

[Sid <cntrational@gmail.com>]

I usually think of gender in terms of male to female and stuff in
between. You could call "raccoon" and "dominant" genders, but I doubt
that most people see gender in that way. Your word accommodates
unusual selfviews, and is pretty useful for that, but I think that
having a separate word for "gender" in terms of male/female/other
types of views would be handy, since it's a concept widely used.

mi'e cntr

On 12 July 2012 19:07, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Sid <cntrational@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The problem with that is that "gender" is a real life concept -- it
>> doesn't cease to exist just because you've made a word that covers a
>> broader topic. I don't think people would have submissiveness or
>> furriness built in in the same way that gender is built in into
>> people, so it's a strange idea for things that wouldn't be counted as
>> "gender" in most conversation to be treated like other genders.
>>
> Assuming you meant "have" instead of "would have", I disagree; more
> precisely, I do not believe that there is strong evidence that the
> difference between "being dominant" and "being female" is not just a
> difference in the amount/frequency of reinforcement the current societal
> context provides.
>
>>
>> Not to say that the word is a bad idea, of course, just that it's not
>> a good replacement for "gender".
>
>
> Do you have a definition for "gender" which does not involve (explicit or
> implicit, e.g. by falling back to "sex") enumeration and so does not
> preclude genders besides "male" and "female" (which exist in some
> societies), but which rules out things like "submissive" and "raccoon" as
> identities? I can't, so I defer to you. Besides, if we use such a general
> word, we could form a tanru/lujvo between {cinse} and it for the more
> conventional meaning of "gender".
>>
>>
>> mi'e cntr
>>
>> On 12 July 2012 17:11, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > What if we discarded the idea of a word for "gender" and coined a term
>> > for
>> > something that subsumes the concept. I don't particularly like {ceinse}
>> > for
>> > being too much like {cinse}, but that's a small detail.
>> >
>> > How about:
>> > x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to x3
>> >
>> > Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm putting
>> > a
>> > tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying something more
>> > like
>> > {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't make sense.) and {tu'a
>> > lo
>> > tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a submissive" or {tu'a lo
>> > arxokuna
>> > mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:12 AM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Let us take as the premise of the discussion that we are creating a new
>> >> selbri that will express gender. Perhaps it's a new gismu; perhaps
>> >> we're
>> >> changing {cinse}. I currently favor making a type-4 fu'ivla {ceinse}.
>> >> This detail is largely irrelevant, however. Assume it can and may be
>> >> done: what exactly shall be done?
>> >>
>> >> The most important places of a selbri are the x1 and x2, for different
>> >> reasons. x1 is the most accessible to LE; in my opinion the most useful
>> >> gender-related noun is the gender question. x1 is a gender.
>> >>
>> >> x2 is the most accessible in the face of SE. The ideal selbri should be
>> >> constructed in such a way that if you want exactly two of its places,
>> >> almost always one of them is x2. I believe that x2 should be that which
>> >> is gendered.
>> >>
>> >> So far we have: x1 is a/the gender of x2.
>> >>
>> >> As I'm sure you're all aware, Gender is Really Complicated. In
>> >> practice,
>> >> that probably means that it should be treated as fundamentally
>> >> subjective. Therefore, x3 should be the one who
>> >> judges/classifies/assigns a gender. For gender identity, this will be
>> >> the same as x2 -- the gender is self-assigned.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Gender is multifaceted. x4 is the aspect in which x2 is gendered, or
>> >> the
>> >> action by which x3 assigns a gender or expresses a gender judgment. x4
>> >> answers the question "in what sense"?
>> >>
>> >> Sex and gender, while certainly not identical, also cannot be entirely
>> >> disentangled, and our understanding of the distinction and relationship
>> >> may evolve over time. There may be more than two members in the set
>> >> that
>> >> includes them. Therefore, I believe that we should not enshrine the
>> >> distinction by giving them separate selbri; rather, sex is a particular
>> >> x4. When a biologist identifies the sex of an animal, we could say
>> >> {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre le xadni}, or (context willing) {lo skepre
>> >> te
>> >> ceinse lo danlu}.
>> >>
>> >> Note that x4 is not an action by which a gender determination is
>> >> reached; it would be incorrect to say {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre lo nu
>> >> catlu lo plibu}, unless the scientist is in the habit of looking at the
>> >> genitals of animals of certain sexes but not of animals of other sexes.
>> >>
>> >> There is no default value for x4. An omitted x4 must be construed from
>> >> context.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is intended to cover a broad and complex topic, so there are
>> >> several possible glosses.
>> >>
>> >> x1 is a gender under system/theory x4.
>> >> x2 has a gender.
>> >> x2 is gendered/assigned a gender.
>> >> x3 assigns/construes/treats x2 as gender x1 in respect/by action x4.
>> >> x1 is x2's gender.
>> >> x2 performs gender role x1 in respect/by action x4.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Feedback is hereby solicited. In particular, are there things one might
>> >> want to say about sex or gender that this place structure could not
>> >> easily express?
>> >>
>> >> --
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>> >
>> >
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