Re: [lojban] lujvo for "spelling"? (was Re: [lojban-beginners] How do you write "Eyjafjallajökull"? (a sentence from tatoeba))

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12 July 2012 15:20, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> For one thing, you don't want to be using me'o at all. Spelling isn't math.
>

Actually, {me'o} is just fine. How else are you supposed to say "I
write the letter 'b'," if not by using {.i mi ciska me'o by.} ({mi
ciska by} is out of the question, because by is anaphoric) ?

That's not "I write the letter "b". me'o by. is the VARIABLE b.

> The only way I know of to spell a word without using ce'o between each
> letter is with lo'u ... le'u:
>

Using lo'u .. le'u just amounts to a shorthand for {ce'o}, yes. The
problem is that if told you {ko ciska lo'u ci ra ki ba na ku te le'u}
I'd expect "ci ra ki ba na ku te" to be on the ciska3, not something
else. By extension, I'd expect "by a bu ky ny i bu" to be on the
ciska3 if I said {.i ko ciska lo'u by abu ky ny ibu le'u}.

> lo'u by. .abu ry. dy. .abu le'u tadji lonu ciska lu barda li'u
>

That suffers from more than one problem, because I'd figure that only
abstractions (or descriptions referring to abstractions, of course)
could be tadji1. A list cannot be a method; that just doesn't make
sense (my answer would be uanai).

Again, I suggest using something involving probably LAhE, porsi, and
lerfu: {vu'i me'o by abu ky ny ibu lerfu porsi fi vu'i zo bakni}.
The rationale behind using vu'i on a quote is that if the quote is a
word-quote, the (only?) logical sequence that vu'i can return is a
list of letters. I'd suppose that vu'i on a grammatical-text quote
returns the list of words. (I differentiate grammatical text quotes
from multi-word quotes, but I won't get into that.)
The justification for using a sequence in porsi3, which is of type
[set] (assuming places are typed, which is what I believe) is that all
sequences are also sets (the sequence type inherits all the properties
of the set type).
Using {vu'i me'o by abu ky ny ibu} is *perhaps* not a good solution
(albeit certainly understandable). Maybe, a better solution would be
the much longer {me'o by ce'o me'o abu ce'o me'o ky ce'o me'o ny ce'o
me'o ibu} which *presumably* parses in the PEG and probably not in
jbofi'e, but I'd never expect anyone to *ever* say that, *ever*.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis
> <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think we should have a lujvo for the relationship between a word and
>> its spelling.
>> Its definition could be
>> "x1 is a spelling of word x2."
>>
>> Currently, my best attempt at expressing that in lojban is
>> {ko'e valsi fi'o lerfu porsi ko'a},
>> inspired by iesk (more ideas below). Am I missing a better possibility?
>>
>> My current idea for a veljvo is {valsi ke lerfu porsi}, giving
>> {vlakemlerpoi}
>> ({vlalerpoi} being possibly a string of letters (as opposed to other
>> letterals)).
>>
>> An important thing to consider is how the spelling would be expressed. The
>> straightforward representation of a {ce'o}-sequence of individual
>> letterals
>> would give things like {me'o .e bu ce'o me'o .ybu li'o}, and these {ce'o
>> me'o}
>> are distracting. CLL 17.2 suggests lerfu strings for the purpose of
>> spelling.
>> I guess we could define the terjvo to be something like {me'o .ebu .ybu
>> li'o}.
>>
>> What do you think? Any suggestions?
>>
>> mu'o
>> mi'e .asiz.
>>
>> On 3 July 2012 11:46, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Tried translating this one and failed.
>> > <How do you write "Eyjafjallajökull"?> actually means <How do you spell
>> > "Eyjafjallajökull"?> or <Please dictate the spelling of
>> > "Eyjafjallajökull">
>> > Any ideas?
>> >
>>
>> On 3 July 2012 12:16, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > ma tadji lonu ciska zo'oi.Eyjafjallajökull.
>> >
>> > Or without using "experimental" cmavo:
>> >
>> > ma tadji lonu ciska zoi by. Eyjafjallajökull .by
>>
>> On 3 July 2012 17:47, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:
>> > .i .u'i ki'a xu zoi zoi. Eyjafjallajökull .zoi se ciska fi'o za'e
>> > lerfyporsi
>> > .e bu ce'o .y bu ce'o jy. ce'o .a bu ce'o fy. ce'o jy. ce'o .a bu ce'o
>> > ly.
>> > ce'o ly. ce'o .a bu ce'o jy. ce'o tei .o bu relmoc. bu foi ce'o ky. ce'o
>> > .u
>> > bu ce'o ly. ce'o ly.
>> >
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
>
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