Re: [lojban] baby words, sort of: catlu vs. zgana

[Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>]

On Friday, November 11, 2011 2:17:55 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:

In English we have:

look - see
listen - hear
touch - feel
sniff - smell
taste - taste

where the second word in each pair describes an experience while the
first one describes an action one takes in order to have that
experience. ("taste" can work both ways, action "I tasted the soup to
see whether it needed more salt", or experience "I tasted something
funny in the soup". "smell" and "feel" too can work both ways.)

Lojban doesn't have gismu for most of those:

catlu - viska
----- - tirna
pencu - -----
----- - sumne
----- - -----

My understanding is that "zgana" and "ganse" were meant to be the
general words for each column, so we could have:

catlu - viska
kerzga - tirna
pencu - pilga'e
zbizga - sumne
tacyzga - tacyga'e

Or in fully regular form:

kalzga - kalga'e
kerzga - kerga'e
pilzga - pilga'e
zbizga - zbiga'e
tacyzga - tacyga'e

There are however two problems with all of this.

One problem is that all the words used to define "zgana" in English in
the gi'uste are used almost exclusively with sight, and as Pierre
pointed out they seem to mean something more like a prolonged
intentional viska than just directing some sense in order to perceive.
I believe this is just a case of bad gloss words, since English has no
convenient word for the intended concept. It is clear that despite the
gloss words, "zgana" is not restricted to sight, because it has a
place for the means of sensing.

The other problem is the property in x2 of ganse. I think gismu that
have a property argument and no argument for the thing with the
property are just wrong. Fortunately there are not many of them. My
policy is to just ignore the gi'uste about this.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

On Friday, November 11, 2011 3:48:25 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:

2011/11/10 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>
> Or in fully regular form:
>
> kalzga - kalga'e
> kerzga - kerga'e
> pilzga - pilga'e
> zbizga - zbiga'e
> tacyzga - tacyga'e

Those are the ones derived from the with-what, but there's also the
series derived from the what:

vinzga - vinga'e
snazga - snaga'e
te'uzga - te'urga'e
panzga - panga'e
vu'izga - vu'irga'e

at least one of which has actually been used.

I suggest making valsi about senses as basic in this example (as you can touch something with your eye but it wouldn't be vision).

zgana fi lo nu viska   - viska

zgana fi lo nu tirna    - tirna

? - ? (tactile sense)

zgana fi lo nu sumne- sumne

? - ? (taste)

Although you might argue that my solution leaves two senses untranslated it's actually the matter of what your tongue is supposed to do.

Do you think that it necessarily must have the sense of taste?

ju'o some animals might taste something using their limbs.

Either we create two words for this basic senses (tactition, gustation) or clarify the meanings of those organs (skin, tongue).

It's your choice to use lujvo but my choice is to give definitions to those lujvo using deep gismu structure only.

It seems to be impossible. Two words for main senses are absent.

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