I must change my viewpoint a bit. When attitudinals or BAI are used don't they clearly state that it's a metaphor in the speaker's mind?And one more general question.Is it possible to speak without metaphors at all?
There can be objects or phenomena that show features that are between two gismu definitionsLike homeomorphism of a mug and a torus. If you slowly change the shape you'll get {kabri} out of {djine}. So where djine ends and kabri starts?
On Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:44:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:As usual for English, the "It's all Greek to me" gets its boost from Shakespeare (Julius Caesar in the discussion about JC thrice refusing the crown), but during various situations other versions have been popular: "It's all Dutch to me", "You might as well be talking Hottentot" and so on. The Shakespeare case has originally an anti-elitist component, too (couldn't use plain old Latin, could he), which furthers the plot. But the general pattern of blaming incomprehension on known of but unintelligible language is pretty general. Ithkuil (I'm never sure I spell it right) certainly qualifies. But, of course, successful metaphors rely on common cultural ties and -- despite the widespread pattern -- these may be lacking here. The hearer may not know about Ithkuil or of it fabled (but real) complexity or may not recognize that what is being talked about is clearly NOT a specimen of Ithkuil (there was a cartoon once of a person confronted with some classic Greek inscription and dismissing it by saying it is all Greek to him). We can, of course, mark the usage as non-literal and force another (but what other?) reading. But that really does go against the whole idea of a metaphor and makes Lojban out to be the kind of narrow, literal, robotic language that external critics take it to be (even Spock had a sense of humor, though a rather elusive one).
From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: It's Greek to me
Am 26.07.2012 06:58, schrieb Gleki Arxokuna:
> I understood the joke. pe'i metaphorical expressions are possible in Lojban but must be clearly defined
> to prevent culture-specific misunderstanding.
If you define a metaphor that way, it's not really a metaphor anymore. You only get the full effect if .itkuil means the language and then say things like {xu di'u .itkuile} to express your confusion. Of course metaphors are fine, and when they are not obvious, you can mark them with pe'a.
> In the Netherlands and Russia they say "It's Chinese to me" in such situations.
In Germany, people say "das kommt mir spanisch vor" = "this seems spanish to me" to exress not-understanding or that something is odd. Using foreign languages in such metaphors is common all over the planet, so using .itkuil (or any other non-lojban language, even though the comical effect is greater with .itkuil, it being another conlang and known for its complexity) will do the job. Again, use pe'a or zo'o when you aren't sure people will get it.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
-- pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
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