On Monday, August 13, 2012 12:36:19 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
<gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
So Robin made his decision about the place structure.Now let's find some sounding for it?
How do major (and minor!) languages express this "clockwise" concept?
I can't find anything special.
1. "clock" metaphor.
2. Earth rotation
3. Screws
So
Typical nuts, screws, bolts, and bottle caps are tightened (moved away from the observer) clockwise and loosened (moved towards the observer) counterclockwise, in accordance with the right-hand rule.
In English screw, nut, bolt
In Russian винт, гайка, болт [vint, gaika, bolt]
In Chinese 螺丝，螺母，螺栓 [Luósī, luómǔ, luóshuān]
In Spanish tornillo, tuerca, perno
In Arabic المسمار، والجوز، والترباس
And I suggest
{bolto} = BOLT + LuO + TOrnillo
It's not my final decision, though.
<rlpowell> my instinct is to object, but I don't think I have any actual good reasons, so: sure, that looks fine. :)
<rlpowell> (that is: using "screw" to mean "rotation" seems odd to me, but I understand your arguments)
Another option is the Earth. Which is even romantic. But why should we stick to the North? Just because we are living in the north hemisphere? What australian jbopre would say?
So these are my thoughts.
.a'o you find other solutions.
As far as the word to use, {bolto} seems fine to me. Heck, we could use more ends-in-o words in Lojban, anyway.
Sorry, I've changed my mind.
Specifying "clockwise" with a metaphor of the Sun that is moving on the sky is adequate in the northern hemisphere only. Yes, it's not fair.
But why not directly refer to what hemisphere we are in ?!!
1. In the Northern hemisphere the Sun and the stars move clockwise east to south to west. Therefore, it can be called the Southern Rotating Sky.
2. In the Southern hemisphere the situation is the opposite.
Now about sounding.
I'll do something which won't follow the algorithm of creating gismu. You must understand me. I'm creating a new complex concept. I want something common for at least one nation, Chinese nation. English and Spanish words are too long. And I don't want to average sounds of 6 languages because it's me who suggests this concept. And it would be stupid to average something that is absent in those languages.
So in Mandarin
nan2 - south
ri4 - the Sun (some may argue that it's actually pronounced as [zhi] but as in lojban it's {solri} I'll retain it as [r])
zhuan4 - to revolve [pronounced actually as {djuan} in lojban notation]
i.e we have "nan-ri-juan"
which (no surprise) results in {nanju}.
For southern hemisphere we have Northern Rotating Sky and counterclockwise movement.
bei3 - north
"bei-ri-juan" results in {berju/berja}. ({berju} is better as it ends in the same letters as {nanju}).
Therefore, I suggest using {nanju} for clockwise.
{berju} should be saved as a reserved word for future generations (who knows what they'll say? We must reserve some space for them). Until then for counterclockwise we can use modifications of {nanju}.
Is it neutral? Yes. Lojban was created on the Earth. Therefore solar metaphor is nevertheless a global metaphor for the whole planet. On other planets sapient creatures may not even be able to pronounce our phonemes so they'll create lojban clone with different sounding. No conflict here.
Objections to my proposal in general?