Weirdly enough, a few days ago, before I read this message, I saw a sign on the campus of the hospital where I worked, stating "smoking not permitted beyond this point", and I was thinking that in lojban that would be "lo nu sigva'u cu na se curmi zo'i ti" Why zo'i? Because it was specifically delineating the area closer to the buildings than that sign. Of course, I didn't make that explicit, which I could do with something like "va ki lo spita dinju" at the beginning of the sentence
--gejyspa
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:15 PM, la gleki
<gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:52:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
Am 07.11.2012 15:57, schrieb la gleki:
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:41:11 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
> Upon further reflection, I have concluded that only the event
> interpretation makes sense, so
>
> mi zutse zo'i lo rirxe
>
> would expand to
>
> lo nu mi zutse cu tolragve lo rirxe [lo manri]
>
> "I'm sitting on this/the same side of the river."
>
>
> Which tags refer to an arguments and which refer to the bridi?
> Is there a table of tags classified by this distinction?
As far as I am aware, no such table exists. In my personal opinion, any
tags whose root place structure allow an event place somewhere should
redistribute the event of the bridi into that place. For tags where an
event place doesn't exist, the solution is less straightforward, but I
think that in many cases, it can be systemized by use of thematic roles
(e.g. agent, patient, etc).
I don't think such a formalization has been done yet, but I would very
much like to work on it, because as of right now, many tags have very
blurry semantics.
mi sanga bau lo lojbo
What does bau semantically attach to? Leaving that up to context is not
satisfactory, so there must be an unambiguous machanism to determine the
relationship of a tag to the bridi or its sumti.
Does bau attach to the event of the bridi? Does it attach to mi? To sanga2?
My preferred solution for this particular example has been to say that
bangu3 takes the event of the bridi thus:
lo lojbo cu bangu fi lo nu mi sanga
Which means that bangu3 needs to be changed to something like "... [to
communicate] in situation x3". (Not a big deal because I have never seen
bangu3 used)
Under the light of this idea, many gismu need slight alterations (most
of which probably would not break usage). The reward is a robust
semantical system.
There are edge cases where both interpretations could be argued for, a
good example is {se rai}. As far as I can tell, it has always been used
to refer to a sumti, usually the place that would be assigned the
"agent" theta role:
mi bajra se rai lo ka sutra
I run as fast as possible.
I think this has questionable semantics, because none of the
interactions have been formalized. It could also be taken to mean:
lo nu mi bajra cu traji lo ka sutra
Which has a type error, since an event is not a sutra1.
Such examples exist all over the place, I think it's clear why something
has to be done about it, especially if one of Lojban's Goals is to
communicate with computers one day.
If anybody else is interested in discussing this - in my opinion - very
important topic, I'd be glad to exchange some ideas.
I always intuitively hated sumtcita and {fi'o}. And the only thing that want is to have a clear explanation and solution.
How many gismu have to be affected? (of course i can mark all of them myself if I had a better understanding how to search for them)
If you can please write a short article to the wiki (to BPFK section or whatever).
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku
.
.
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