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Re: [lojban] CLL 1.1/ CLL 2.0. What is your opinion in the current situation?

.i la .aionys. cu cusku di'e

On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de
<mailto:seladwa@gmx.de>> wrote:

    Am 18.11.2012 19:48, schrieb Robin Lee Powell:

        There are probably 20 people on this list with most or all of the
        requisite skills.  No idea which if them would take money for it;
        I've offered, and gotten no reply.


    Is anyone currently working on it?


No. the last commit was on Aug 12. I haven't personally been working on
it, with the excuse that I've got school stuff right now.

    I can understand gleki's frustration, and I can also understand
    yours. I don't really understand how so many people just prefer to
    watch passively what happens. The BPFK has done a lot of great work
    already, it's a shame it completely ran out of steam.


I don't think the BPFK has run out of steam per se. I'll note that the
BPFK mailing list is apparently dead, and it's members as a whole don't
do much, but the /job/ of the BPFK is still getting done, by those of us
that care about whatever issue we're bringing up to discuss. Problems
are being found, opinions are being floated, decisions are being made.
Actually, decisions aren't really being made. Most discussions just end in dead silence, nothing ever gets announced as an official solution, and almost nothing gets a note on the tiki. 


Speaking of, I think that anyone who wants to get issues solved and
changes made, should apply to join the BPFK list and start talking on
it. The entire reason for the existence of that list is to discuss
issues and make decisions.


Not sure if that's (still) true. We could give it a try, of course.


If I were to guess, I'd say most people are to busy learning and using
Lojban to spend any time on the decision making, issue discussion bits.
People are busy *using* Lojban? Who? Where? It is true that many are struggling with learning it. 


    We get lots of newbies on IRC and each one of them reminds us of the
    fact that we don't have a single up-do-date, official description of
    our language. We have to tell each time that they can learn from the
    CLL or Lojban for Beginners, but that there are several outdated
    things in those materials. Is it not in everyone's interest that
    people new to the language get welcomed by proper learning materials?


Of course it is. That's why it's so important that the CLL1.1 is
finished. The big thing about CLL1.1 is that one of its design
parameters is making it easier to maintain and update than the original
CLL, so that keeping it up to date with any changes to the language is
simple and relatively painless. The other major point is that it be easy
to deliver in a variety of formats, so that the same source can be used
to automagically generate a web site, pdf, print book, etc. etc.
Yes, very useful and desirable. I again welcome anyone who is willing to help to speak up and accept our money. 



    What do people think about this now?


I'm still in total support of this. It's very much like the U.S.A.
system of government in some respects, where those of us who give a crap
about one issue or another discuss it, debate it, argue about it, and so
on until we've figured out what we think is the best solution for it,
and then Robin decides whether or not to veto our solution. More often
than not he agrees, and to the best of my knowledge he never exercises
his decision-making power without being fully informed.
I agree. However I think it's too much to ask of one person. And now he is a father and understandably very very short on time and energy. Maybe new circumstances require new methods. 


I don't think a wiki is the appropriate format for the CLL. For one
thing, changes should only be made to the CLL when they have officially
been decided on, which means only select few people should have write
access, not everyone and their dog.
Of course not, but it's not likely that "anyone's dog" will make use of write access. We don't usually have many volunteers for anything. I expect that only those that really want to help would help. 


For another, a wiki isn't easily
converted into other delivery modes, AFAIK, and the deisre is for the
CLL to be available as /at least/ a web site, a pdf, and a print book,
which is why CLL1.1 is being encoded in LaTeX and hosted in a git
repository: being in LaTeX makes it easy to print the same material in a
large variety of formats, including but not limited to the ones I've
mentioned, and being in a git repo makes it very easy to submit changes
to the CLL on an as needed basis.
Yes, but the point of the wiki would be to. One could also use google docs instead. Just something that allows multiple people to put together a written description in one place for the future CLL. Once the text(s) are good and complete, they would be transferred to the docbook, which maybe by then is ready for it. It's just an idea. 

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i


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