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Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
http://dag.github.com/cll/16/6/
On 27 December 2012 00:47, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:19 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Surely from {ci} which means "exactly three of" in both contexts; the
>> difference is in the class we are talking about: the extension of {remna} in
>> the first case, the extension of {lo remna} in the second.
>
>
> I don't see how you get the exactly. If there are four men standing in a
> room, then it is true that there exists 3 X such that X is "a man standing
> in a room", and the same for 2 X and 1 X.
>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
>>
>> Where do you think "exactly" comes from? Certainly not from {da}, whose
>> definition is {sumka'i .i pamoi ke logji lairka'e snicne}.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> To give a concrete example, consider the difference between {ci remna cu
>> nanmu} and {ci lo remna cu nanmu}. The former says "there are exactly three
>> humans that are male. The latter says that we're talking about some humans,
>> three of whom are male. Note that the former is blatantly false, while the
>> latter is true in plenty of contexts.
>>
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la latro'a
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The similarity is nearly all syntactic; the semantics are entirely
>> different. {ci broda cu brode} is an extremely precise statement, saying
>> that there are exactly 3 brodas that brode. {ci lo broda cu brode} is an
>> imprecise statement, saying that there are some brodas that are relevant in
>> context, and three of them brode. It could be that every broda brodes in the
>> latter case, if only three brodas are contextually relevant.
>>
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la latro'a
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> zo'e noi ... and da poi ... are completely and totally different. One
>> involves context, the other doesn't (or, in some interpretations,
>> "approximately doesn't", i.e. context can affect the universe of discourse
>> but in any case it is "large"). Moreover, PA lo broda cu brode doesn't imply
>> that no other broda1 brode, whereas PA broda cu brode does.
>>
>>
>> Those are two very small differences. They do not add up to "completely
>> and totally".
>>
>> Both are a variable pro-sumti with an identifying clause attached. That
>> spells "very similar" to me.
>>
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la latro'a
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 26 December 2012 14:09, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> pa plise = pa lo plise = "one of one or more things which actually is an
>> apple" = an apple (as opposed to "that apple")
>>
>>
>> This was only true in pre-xorlo. Under the gadri proposal, {pa broda} ->
>> {pa da poi ke'a broda} directly. In xorlo, {pa broda} and {pa lo broda} are
>> thus very different.
>>
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>>
>>
>> No they aren't.
>>
>> {pa lo broda} = {pa zo'e noi ke'a broda}
>> {pa broda} = {pa da poi ke'a broda}
>>
>> {zo'e noi...} and {da poi...} are very similar in meaning. The two phrases
>> may not be "equal", but they are certainly still equivalent.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 19:58:05 v4hn wrote:
>> > The question is, what do you answer, if you _don't_ have a specific one
>> > (or a group of specific ones) in mind, but {lo plise} is the most
>> > specific
>> > thing you can say?
>>
>> "lo co'e plise"? "lo nalsteci plise"?
>>
>> Pierre
>> --
>> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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