[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [lojban] Anti-CLL aka a proposal for a new policy for teaching lojban



The CLL is not now and never was intended as a teaching tool. It is a description of the entire Lojban language as it is, and nothing more. There's a reason it has no vocabulary.

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:25 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, December 27, 2012 8:01:09 PM UTC+4, remod wrote:
It is a fact that CLL needs to be updated but call it "gramatically incorrect" is just a false statement. I really doubt there's much money coming out from selling it, so asking "where the money goes" seems rather pointless to me.

It seems pointless to me too. That's what im wondering about.
 

To me CLL has to stay (and be update) as a reference, it's not a tool for teaching the language. A 2.0 version should switch to xorlo (of course), use the PEG grammar rahter than the YACC version. Possibly get rid of mekso (or just deprecate it).

That said, I'm all in favour of more teaching material, and I agree that the most important goal is to spread the language. The point is that I think we should use CLL as a starting point, there's no value in rejecting it.

As i said it must be exclusively in lojban. It will remove English bias from the language, btw. 


About English, I think that whatever gets created has to be done in English first so that most of the other lojbanists can benefit from it and, eventually, translate it in their own language.  I'll probably never complete my comics but if I ever do, I know it has to be in English first, so to reach the largest possible audience. After that I'll translate it into Italian and I would love if others would translate it into their language.

If you are translating it to lojban as well then you are doing something like Waves 2.0, just an alternative solution. This is in full concord with what im suggesting. It's stage 2, namely teaching courses, comics, easy reading etc.
Stage 3 is jbo-CLL.


remod.


On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically incorrect. What is the reason to raise money from something broken? Present something perfect and the book will become a bestseller.
2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people language.
3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating to other languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn't allow synchronous updates to other languages.
If you love english it's your choice. All languages are equal to me. Except lojban. And I don't have any special love for English.

Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed description for experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why using English here?

Here is my proposal.
1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a short pdf file without any search capabilities will do. This is a task that is very easy to complete.
2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original lessons). The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary can start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Waves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.
3. jbo-CLL.
When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can move to this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read and understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes complicated issues. 

Consequences.
1. translating the Waves to other languages is easier cuz they are short and written in a simple language.
2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.

Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban). I don't understand where the money obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It's the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.
Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.
If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency all most important goals are complete.

That's the plan how we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and well-known around the world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak English.

P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site for Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in Esperanto, not even in English.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/qSniiCo0fMwJ.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/x1_5nW9YqDEJ.

To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.