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Re: [lojban] Anti-CLL aka a proposal for a new policy for teaching lojban

Like others, I find the CLL _immensely_ useful for learning lojban, as it is intended to answer "How do I ..." questions from English to lojban. By the nature of its specifics, it shouldn't be directly translated into other languages, as many of them do not have the same issues (Chinese, Arabic, etc.)

Given your proposal:
  1. Small PDF dictionaries for lojban have existed for about 10 years now. There are probably at least one-half dozen, maybe even a full dozen. What is wrong with any of them?
  2. Extending the Wave lessons is a good idea, as any support for "Lojban for Beginners" by Nick and Robin seems to have been abandoned (which is a shame, because I find it very well done overall).
  3. A CLL in lojban itself is pretty useless, because at the moment we have maybe 50 fluent speakers as lojbab has pointed out.
The other issue I have with your email is that you propose that this work be undertaken but never specify by whom. Lojban is a lot like a wide open-source project (Gnome, Linux kernel, KDE) as opposed to a narrow-focus single application. Thus, if someone wants X done, said someone DOES X, and solicits others to aid them. Nothing you said in your original email or any replies gives any indication this is more than a theoretical you want "someone else" to do. So unless you plan on personally leading the work effort on your proposal (which likely means you get to do 90%+ of it singlehandedly - nothing about you personally, just the lack of helping hands on *any* lojban or LLG effort), there is not much more to say. Shit, or get off the pot.


On Thu, 2012-12-27 at 05:23 -0800, la gleki wrote:
1. The CLL is a tool to raise money in Lojbanistan. Yet even CLL 1.1 will be grammatically incorrect. What is the reason to raise money from something broken? Present something perfect and the book will become a bestseller.
2. The CLL is useless pretty much. It doesn't teach people language.
3. The CLL is written in English and is very long. Translating to other languages is tiresome and the current github format doesn't allow synchronous updates to other languages.
If you love english it's your choice. All languages are equal to me. Except lojban. And I don't have any special love for English.


Now why do we need the CLL? To provide the most detailed description for experienced users? Well, that's a good idea. But why using English here?


Here is my proposal.
1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans. Just a short pdf file without any search capabilities will do. This is a task that is very easy to complete.
2. Update and develop the Waves 2.0 (from la klaku's original lessons). The goal is that people that use only these Waves and a dictionary can start speaking Lojban and reach fluency. The second goal is that Waves must be as short and comprehensive at the same time as possible.

3. jbo-CLL.

When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can move to this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read and understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes complicated issues. 


Consequences.
1. translating the Waves to other languages is easier cuz they are short and written in a simple language.
2. No need (and pretty useless) to translate jbo-CLL.


Some may say that CLL 1.1 is very important (and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban). I don't understand where the money obtained from selling the books go to (to advertising lojban?). It's the perfect design, not any advertisements that can make Lojban popular.
Money provide nothing. Human desire provide everything.
If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach fluency all most important goals are complete.


That's the plan how we can make Lojban much more popular, learnable and well-known around the world, not just among a group of geeks who can speak English.


P.S. Recently I've discovered that much stuff on lernu.net (a web site for Esperanto learners) has much information written exclusively in Esperanto, not even in English.
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