[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [lojban] Anti-CLL aka a proposal for a new policy for teaching lojban

la gleki wrote:

Thanks for your reply, doi lojbab.

I won't reply to every your point.

Just note that I'm talking about something better than what is currently is.
By the waves i meant "Google Wave lessons continued".
I have no idea what those are. I don't use online resources very much. If it isn't linked on the Lojban home page, I'm not likely to pay much attention, and even then, am unlikely to use it. 


Yes, almost nobody is fluent in Lojban.
And nobody will until we implement those three levels.
Until we get a language baseline fully documented, a lot of people will lack that kind of commitment.
It isn't learning materials; it is faith that the language is complete and stable.
But even when that occurs, no matter what kind of learning materials exist, Lojban fluency isn't likely to become common. Why not? Because mastering a language to the level of fluency takes time and effort, and this is at the hobby level for nearly everyone. And even for those with serious interest, the lack of local people speaking the language will keep most of them from learning to speak the language well (they might write and read skillfully, but speaking and understanding spoken language is a whole nother thing). 


     > Here is my proposal.
     > 1. Present a short dictionary with definitions readable by humans.

    In what language would it be readable to all humans?


As for level 1 (dictionary) it's a very minor problem. Just as with
level 2 it's a subject to translation to all languages.
Which is a non-trivial effort. Even doing a good translation of the gismu list to another language is non-trivial. 


It's largely semantics level.
I hate to tell you this, but semantics differences are the absolute toughest thing to deal with in language and translation. 


     > 3. jbo-CLL.
     > When the person successfully completes the previous item ey can
    move to
     > this level. This book will give the most detailed and contemporary
     > description of the language that a fluent speaker is able to read
    and
     > understand. It's written in simple lojban but describes
    complicated issues.

    There exists no simple lojban that describes complicated issues.

    So far as I know, there is no one yet sufficiently skilled in Lojban to
    write something like CLL in Lojban and have it be understandable to
    others. xorxes and Robin probably are capable of translating the text
    into Lojban, but not quickly, and most likely the result wouldn't be
    understood by all that many.


I'm talking about the future.
We're trying to manage the present. Without a lot of money, and without many people willing to commit time to DO things for a long period of time.
I've hardly been active for the last half dozen years or so, and wasn't doing enough for several years before that, so I am not one to complain. But when we were working on CLL, it was week after week of 20+ hours a week for several months. And early in the project, I was putting in full-time work for weeks and months at a time.
There are useful things that can be done, by someone with the right skills, in only a few hours (but I don't know what they are), but the big challenges keeping is from moving forward are things that will take at least a couple hundred hours total focused time for one person. And we don't have people who can spend that kind of time, (or like me, they tend to not have sufficient focus to make that time pay off).
If we can get the present set of tasks done, then we may have the resources to think about the future. But we don't right now. So if you want any of your personal Lojban dreams to be implemented, you will have to step up and do it yourself. 


*I want people to talk in Lojban itself. Not just talking about Lojban.*
So do I. But other than at LogFests, I don't have much opportunity. And nothing online is going to change that. (yes, I can talk to someone in Lojban on the telephone, but why would I do so, other than for practice? More importantly, as we discovered when we held weekly Lojban sessions here at my house, it is damnably difficult to find something that a group of people want to talk ABOUT in Lojban). 


     >(and thus they implicitly advertise English, not Lojban)

    It isn't "advertising" anything.  It is defining the language, in the
    only way we are capable of at this point.


Exactly. "At this point" , a point that can last forever until we get
fluent speakers and denaskuloj.


If so, then that is its fate.
No one will become a fluent speaker unless they WANT to, and unless they are willing to put in sustained time and effort to achieve that goal. And if they are so-willing then the resources we've provided will likely be plenty (after all: every fluent Lojbanist we have has done it with what is already available, or even less).
Better resources will make it easier to get people to a level far less than fluency, where they might be more motivated to put in the time and effort, but my experience has been that it is a lack of utility, rather than a lack of teaching resources that is holding people back.
But few people are going to work on creating those resources, when the language is still subject to arbitrary change. So we need the baseline first, and then the self-discipline thereafter to say NO to every proposal to change or improve the language for years, until that fluent speaker base has a chance to emerge.
Esperanto got to where it is at as a result of DECADES of commitment. We are just celebrating our 25th anniversary. When Esperanto was 25, it was embroiled in the major schism that resulted in Ido. (Lojban was 10 years old before we even had a book comparable to what Esperanto started with, so in a sense, we are only 15 years along the Esperanto timeline, in an era and environment where far fewer people are into learning new languages).
But I don't think this state will last forever. Just until we get CLL revised, and then maybe another year or two. 


     > Money provide nothing.

    It pays the bills.

Money is not necessary in a community  where people don'y ask money for
something they love.
I've never asked for money for my Lojban work. But I've had my wife supporting me and our family for all these years. And the fact that SHE works means that for all the love she might have for the language, she doesn't have time to do anything with it (which is why she is even less active than I am) 


Love cannot be bought.
Correct. But love isn't enough to get things done by itself. One has to have time and energy and focus.
But time usually has to be bought, because once people get past college or so (if not sooner), time is in extremely short supply and has to be traded for the means of living. (Retirement again gives time, but by then energy and focus have largely diminished.) 


     > Human desire provide everything.

    I wish it were that easy.

     > If 10 000 people around the world find lojban awesome and reach
    fluency
     > all most important goals are complete.

    Which goals are more important, and who defines them as such?

    I'd love to have 10,000 people fluent in Lojban, but at this point
    having 50 seems a little difficult.


This is why i started this topic.
Talking about it won't change anything. You want something to change, then ACT. By yourself, not waiting for others, and fully prepared that your efforts might be a total waste of time until and unless you get the job DONE.
That commitment and action is why JCB achieved the original version of Loglan, and it is why I was able to bring Lojban into existence (with a couple others helping me along at key points). Then a small number of people (but more than one) who stuck with it for YEARS was fundamental to getting CLL 1.0 into print. The next stage will similarly take a set of people - a larger number this time, sticking with it for YEARS. And it starts with getting CLL 1.1 done, and then CLL 2.0.
I think Lojban will get there. But I am not going to get excited about any new projects until we show that we can get done with the ones already started.
I won't stop others from trying other new projects, but unless they are willing and able to do it themselves, I won't encourage them either. 

lojbab

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.