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Re: [lojban] Secondary meaning of {cevni}

Right. I'm not criticizing the definition, merely explicitly pointing out notable differences from others and linguistic choices made.

As for philosophy, someone else said it better than I can:

> Philosophy has some amount of a problem in that whenever something becomes rigorous enough we often stop classifying it as philosophy (math, physics, linguistics, economics, psychology- pretty much all of these split off from philosophy).
  -- http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=735#comment-26093




On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 3:52 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry, to intrude philosophy (or theology) into this, but a case can be made that the only actual god has no worshipers, since all have worshiped imperfect simulcra of it -- and always will, even though they keep trying to get it right.  It is hard to worhsip the ineffable without effing a bit -- and thus missing.

And that is precisely why I don't have truck with philosophy. I see absolutely no point in discussing things which can not be proven one way or the other. God is unknowable in every aspect, number, gender, temperament, existence. There is no way for us to find out anything about the true nature of (the) god(s), and so there's no point that I can see in bothering with trying. And like pretty much everything ever thought of by philosophers, if and when we do figure out a way to make such things knowable, we'll probably find out that all the philosophers were wrong.

Also, "the only actual god" sounds very Judeo-Christian. How could possibly know whether lo cevni is singular? Maybe there's three, or 20, or a million. The only thing we can say we know for certain is that we don't know anything.

Sorry, I forgot to state my point.

When I speak of gods, I don't bother about what is actual, specifically because there's literally no what to know what that is. I have my own beliefs about the matter, of course, but I don't pretend to think that my beliefs are the definite truth. So, when I talk about gods, I talk about beings like Thor, Ra, Gaeia, Minerva, and Pluto; beings which more than likely do not now and never did exist, but which at some point in time- whether or not "now" is part of that time frame- were believed to be the real thing by somebody.

So, my point is, I feel pretty safe in my assumption that the vast majority about lo cevni will be about those which are believed in, and not the ineffable actuality, and have no problem with forcing those who do wish to talk about the ineffable actuality in Lojban to use lo cevni be zi'o to do so.

 
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Secondary meaning of {cevni}

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, it just means that if I wanted to talk about a god who existed whether or not ey was worshipped I'd need to use a zi'evla or {cevni be zi'o}. A priest might call the Christian god {lo cevni be zi'o bei roda}.

Is there a such thing as a god which does not have worshipers? Granted, there are gods which do have worshipers /now/, but they did at one point, and I know of no gods that have never, at any time, had any worshipers at all.
 
Even if you don't like philosophy, this is still a linguistic issue. In English, the Goa'uld are not gods, even though they are worshiped as gods; in lojban (assuming your definition as canonical, which makes sense) they are gods because they are worshiped as such.*

*... to the people who worship them.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Meh. I don't have any truck with philosophers in general.


On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
Seems like this would interact nicely with the setting of American Gods, where {lo cevni be noda} are literally dying mostly because {noda ra cevni}.

I think some theist philosophers would disagree with your definition, though; it's, in a sense, very anthropocentric; {pu ji'a sai lo nu zasti lo remna ku la .jegvon. ze'e ca cevni fi ro da}


On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
So it seems like your notion of {cevni} focuses more centrally on worship and dominion than on divinity.

No, it focus entirely on status. Their servants thought they were gods, we know they aren't. If someone think that X is god, then to that person, {da cevni}. If someone else does not think X is a god, or alternatively /knows/ that X isn't, hen to /that/ person, {da na cevni}.
 
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:24 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
Which is why I say misleading and not incorrect.

Also, {la'oi Goa'uld cevni xu} by your definition (ignore if you haven't seen Stargate SG-1)?

{.i go'i jenai go'i .i na cevni mi to fangypre po'o toi .i cevni lo gy. remna selfu}
Yes and no. Not gods to me (just aliens), but gods to their human servants.
 
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:17 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:00 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
Then I believe that the jbovlaste definition of {cevni} is misleading:
  Definition: x1 is a/the god/deity of people(s)/religion x2 with dominion
       over x3 [sphere]; x1 is divine.
note the secondary definition. I would consider angels to be divine.

Well, then you're using a different sense of the word "divine" than jbovlaste is, because the sense of "divine" in the English definition of {cevni} is "(of or pertaining to a god): deific, godlike, godly", whereas you seem to be meaning "(eternal, holy): hallowed, holy, sacred".

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Even demons, and if you stretch the meaning /really/ far, djinn.


On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 1:28 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
xu se cumki smuni lo ka ce'u ge angeli gi cevni

{cevni} can refer to many different things, but not angels. Gods, goddesses, demi-god(esse)s, oni, and so on and so forth.

But not angels. Angels are not gods, they aren't even god-like. Except for maybe the archangels, they're barely above humans, and in many ways are lower on the totem pole (like the complete lack of free will, emotion, or creativity, for example).

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )



--
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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