Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}

Good.
But it would be nice to formulate a general principle about their use that could apply across the board. I don't particularly see any reason to confine the usage to {du'u} (except for the "indirect question" label) or to {ka}: what he said is presumably a proposition (or a slew of them) but what he saw is probably an event or a sensation and what a pair have in common might be just about anything: a property, a piece of property, a kinship, a genetic mutation, and so on forever. Of course, that would suggest the same sort of extension for the lambda term (including making it more useful), which ain't gonna happen.

From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}

To those still staying with the original {makau} & {mokau} question.

Thanks! I'm not quite sure I'll be able to use them properly but I started see what they are intended for.

mu'o mi'e la .remod.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 4:15 PM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 8:15:10 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
{djuno} bothers me, because there's two different useful things it should mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, where the speaker knows the du'u that is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3, and there's a djuno-du'u definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, which pertains to djuno3 in some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete"; {lo se djuno} is not a complete bridi syntactically but is not a "fact" semantically either. The latter is redundant, and could just as easily be done with srana. (That is, {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi srana ko'a} == {mi djuno lo du'u broda kei ko'a} and {mi djuno lo srana be ko'a} == {mi djuno fi ko'a}).

That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets you use jai hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain the gimste version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be implemented anyways.

Could you please provide real examples of djuno with {ka}-meaning and djuno with {srana} meaning.

Another question. What about morji, jimpe? Do they also show the same dualism?

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llambías <jjlla...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn't because the gimste
> made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a property
> of the djuno3.

We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising predicate, in the
linguistic sense of "raising"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 is the
semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said of
almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of
oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not in
this category.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.