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Re: [lojban] what {me lo broda ku} means and why not allow {selbri NOI}

la .xorxes. cu cusku di'e

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 7:36 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

In http://www.lojban.org/tiki/zasni+gerna+cenba+vreji xorxes proposes
allowing {broda NOI}.
pe'i it makes no sense and shouldn't be allowed.

{do sanga} = You sing, you're a singer
{*do sanga noi stati} = *You sing that talented (???)

However,
{do me lo sanga noi stati} = You are a singer who is talented
makes perfect sense.


I think you would want "poi" there. But "noi" with selbri would have a
different use:

do sanga noi mi na pu djuno
You sing, which I didn't know.
Are you saying that {noi} and {poi} would have different uses as selbri/bridi relative clauses? I can see {poi} being a substitute for {gi'e}, and {noi} a bridi relative clause, but maybe there are uses for a {noi}-like gi'e or a restrictive bridi relative clause.
There is currently some movement to make {sei} a bridi-relative clause that contains a ke'a that refers to the bridi the sei-clause is in. It's a useful thing to have, but if NOI can be used for this instead, then we can save the more flexible, vague {sei}.
The problem I see with {broda NOI brode} is that it messes with constructs like {lo broda NOI brode}. If NOI can attach to selbri, then there is no longer a way to put NOI inside the LE description (e.g. "lo broda noi brode [ku'o] [ku]}, which makes a difference when outer quantifiers are present.
Whatever you do, one option gets removed. Depending on the solution, {ku} might no longer be elidible with NOI. 

If it weren't for these drawbacks, I would be for this change.


This construction would require something like "ke'a" but in selma'o
GOhA, to pick the selbri that "noi" attaches to. Or perhaps "co'e" can
do that job:

do sanga noi mi na co'e
You sing, which I don't.

do sanga noi ro da djica lo nu da co'e
You sing, which everybody wants to do.


Wouldn't {no'a} work?

do sanga noi mi na no'a
You sing, which I do not.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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