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Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:39:34 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:Well, for one thing there could be several moons or the mother ship or ....
Yes, descent is the drop from a property to an instance. Now, it may be that something like that drop occurs to a cluster of properties (not the right word, of course) which is unique in the domain, but that still functions (I suppose) like any other property, being subsumed, overlapping or subsuming other properties.
In {la .alis. cu remna} Alice can refer to several people as well. Referential use of {le} can help if two participants of the conversation have agreed for which object to use it however even in that case there might be misunderstanding ( what if speaker A called an apple {le plise} but the speaker B unlike the speaker B noticed several apples around).
Other brivla in Lojban are all properties.
I guess in {lo plise cu xunre} {xunre} is a property, right?
Then for me the following raising doesn't mean much.
{mi viska lo plise noi xunre}
And of course lo plise = zo'e noi plise.
(If we for the first time in our life see an orange we might call it {ti plise ga'a mi'a}, so {plise} is also a property).
So I just can't see why Lojban is SAE.
I have the following case unsolved:
<quote>The classic contrast between an SAE language and a process one is the name of a wet spot in the Grand Canyon area. The Anglos call it Weeping Spring, a thing with a property. The Hopi call it Whiting Downward, a process.</quote>
How to say "I'm near the whiting downward" in this language then?
I guess in Lojban we can't say {mi jibni lo nu farlu}. How can i be near a process? I can only be near some atoms taking part in that process.
How do the Hopi solve this problem?
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:01:38 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
The fact that you *can* do something in Lojban is not terribly important; the orange-in-the-sky tanru could obviously be well-formed and meaningful. But it wouldn't be a name without the 'la' to bring in the thing which bears it. The point about Northern Tlo"n and property languages generally is that descent doesn't happen
Really sorry. I'm not as smart as you in this philosophy. Of course {tsani ke kandi narju} isn't a name. Although what else could exist in the sky that is pale orange in color?
What does "descent" mean? That
there is no {la} and no referential use of words in this Tlon language? Again sorry but not all of us are logicians here.
. One of the roughest tests for SWH is Sanskrit, a thoroughly SAE language to all appearances yet used to express philosophies across the range from Aristotelian to Platonic and beyond to pure property and pure process and even instantaneous sense-data forms. Of course, it usually fails in the details, but it goes an awful long way (as trying to translate some Navya-Nyaya treatises showed me -- dammit, where's the effing subject?).
aUI, also thoroughly SAE, has the problem of limited vocabulary (worse than toki pona even) and so the need to devise metaphorical uses practically from the get-go. But that has nothing to do with the situation we're discussing. I don't know squat about Ithkuil but rumor has it that it is just Lojban gone wild, with every possible verb modifier known to man or beast and a few that have escaped even the Archons and Aeons. Again, not obviously relevant here.
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, la gleki
<gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 4:24:46 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM, la gleki
<gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:06:27 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:Damn it. It has been in my bookmarks for years. Anyway "it mooned" is just {ca'o lunra} because obviously {lunra} is a verb. And I can't see much difference from "it was the dog all o'er the road" from the Wave lessons.
"It mooned" is from the languages of the southern hemisphere:
"The preceding applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere. In
those of the northern hemisphere (on whose Ursprache there is very
little data in the Eleventh Volume) the prime unit is not the verb, but the
monosyllabic adjective. The noun is formed by an accumulation of
adjectives. They do not say "moon," but rather "round airy-light on dark"
or "pale-orange-of-the-sky" or any other such combination. In the
example selected the mass of adjectives refers to a real object, but this is
purely fortuitous."
Quote: <One of the imagined languages of Tlön lacks nouns. Its central units are "impersonal verbs qualified by monosyllabic suffixes or prefixes which have the force of adverbs." Borges lists a Tlönic equivalent of "The moon rose above the water": hlör u fang axaxaxas mlö, meaning literally "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned".>
Yes, as the story says, that applies to the languages of the southern hemisphere of Tlön. What's your point?
As for "pale-orange-of-the-sky" i can do that with tanru or lujvo. And btw it's more of aUI or similar languages (even Ithkuil might do, and there is also Arahau with only 100 root words which leads to the same kind of problems as with aUI, see J.Clifford's lecture on youtube).
So again I can't see any problems with expressing that even in English. Indeed it's just "pale-orange-of-the-sky" may be with a fixed meaning. What's wrong?
What's wrong with what? You asked for an example of pc's "languages which go for properties only", "the only elements of the second sort of languages are properties". I just cited the only example of such languages I know of.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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