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Re: [lojban] Robin retry: commands.





On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 4:14:40 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
On 6 May 2013 09:47, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> wrote:


If I understand {ga'i} correctly, it marks the referent to be of lower
rank. I don't think this is appropriate to mark it as a command.

{ga'i} marks the speaker to be higher rank; {ga'i nai} marks the speaker to be lower rank.

Actually, it marks rank of the speaker compared to the attached thing, which is a subtle distinction.

e.g. {.i lo ga'i gerku cu melbi} has the dog marked as being the thing towards which the speaker feels higher.

Although rank has a connection to the *ability* to give orders, typically, I wouldn't say that using {ga'i} is a *way* to give orders though.
 
 

{le'o}, according to jbovlaste is aggressiveness. If the commander
feels the need to be aggressive when giving commands, that hints to
some kind of inner shortcoming, so that he feels he needs to give the
command some additional force to compensate; and that makes it, in my
opinion, not a universal way to mark a "ko-bridi" as a command.

I agree.

I agree too. {le'o} is the kind of thing a store owner would say when kicking you out. The subtext is generally supposed to match up with the text in Lojban, which is why indicators exist.
 

{e'i} is "feeling constraint" according to jbovlaste. According to the
Merrian-Webster dictionary (sorry, I'm not an English-native),
"constraint" is:

[...]


This seems to be the way the one receiving the command should feel,
not the commander's.

Yes, but the discussion is about whether to redefine (or at least to use dialectically) {e'i} to be more in line with {e'o}, {e'u}, and {e'a}.

In case we're taking votes, I vote in favour of redefining it. Dialectically, it is already used that way by the handful of typical IRC jbopre.


I vote against redefining it. For me

e'i = sei bilga
ei = sei te javni
e'o = sei cpedu

and so on.

if u redefine e'i as command then we lose {sei bilga} meaning. If you use .ei for that then we lose {sei te javni} meaning.

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Irrealis+Attitudinals has the following text:

"selpa'i uses {.ei} as "should" and {.e'i} as "must" (as in {.e'i mi'o denpa .i lo sorpeka pu'o zvati}), I (camgusmis) think that's pretty good. The {.e'e} here is obviously out of the question, and I think keeping something like "must" is worth it, too, and closer to what we have."


I don't know what happened to that obvious solution.

In any case please don't deprive me of {sei bilga} and {sei te javni}.

 

According to jbovlaste, {e'o} means "attitudinal: request - negative
request.". This doesn't look like a feeling, more like an intention;
the speaker's intention to make a request. There might be a plethora
of different feelings attached to this intention depending on the one
making the request. This is what we need to mark a "ko-bridi" as a
command. We need to clearly state the "ko-bridi" is a command. 
I'm no expert here, so I may be wrong, but my understanding on "ko
broda" is it means "make {ko broda} true", either as a request, or as
a command. The CLL makes a request explicit with "e'o ko broda".

What about "e'onai ko broda"? {e'onai} means "negative request"
according to jbovlaste. So what is a negative request? My naive
interpretation:

e'onai ko broda
negative request, make "ko broda" true
this is not a request, make "ko broda" true
this is an order, make "ko broda" true

The experts here can explain why I am wrong....

"negative request" seems to have been interpreted as "please don't" in the few uses I read of the few uses I found (here: http://www.lojban.org/corpus/)
The BPFK proposed revision is to make {e'o nai} an offer.
The problem with your logic for making {e'o nai} a command is that an analogous argument can be made for {e'u nai}.



A command to "not do" ? Sounds like {.e'o do na broda}. Why should the attitudinal just "include negation". Sounds like an extremely pointless feature. The BPFK's idea seems best. {.i .e'onai do da pinxe} -> "Would you like something to drink?"

.i mi'e la tsani  mu'o

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