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Begin forwarded message:
I guess my problem (aside from questions about the status of these critters) is the point of all thes details and added vocabulary. How often does it matter? On the rare occasion when it does, can we say it in a Zipfeanly appropriate form? Need the fact that some language, even our own, does it a certain way influence what happens in Lojban? Oh, and what does all of this have to do with masses, i.e., sets acting collectively?
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On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:04:36 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: After slogging through this long and repetitive thread, I find I have lost what the point was. To help guiding my understanding, I summarize the present situation as I understand it.
In a given speech situation there is are a bunch (maybe only one) of people speaking or being represented by the speaker ({mi}), another bunch (not necessarily separate) who directly or vicariously hear the speech ({do}), and a third group not directly involved in the speech act ({ko'a} and just about everything else).
In the event being spoken about any or all of these groups (or parts of them) may be involved and they may be referred to by the designations derived from their speech-act roles: {mi + do}, {mi + ko'a}, {do + ko'a} and {mi + do + ko'a}, in various abbreviated forms.
On a standard Lojban assumption (at least
since xorlo achieved its final form), the simplest such forms refer to the united bunches. The question of how those bunches satisfy the predicates involved is left to context or a demand for clarification.
Toward clarification, then, we have a different forms for when the bunch satisfies the predicate distributively (individually, more or less) and when it satisfies it collectively (as a mass, ditto).
As a side note, the English (and perhaps many other languages') "we", does not correspond directly to any of these things, since it is distinctly plural (unlike {mi}) and may include or exclude any number of others.
1. first person. {mi=le cusku be dei} 2. second person {do=le te cusku be dei} 3. non-person, someone not in the dialog {da'au = da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} (ad hoc experimental cmavo)
Also we need {da'ai = da poi prenu gi'e na'e cusku be dei}
So I = mi you exclusively = do you and others = do'o = do jo'u da'au we = mi jo'u da'ai we exclusively = mi jo'u da'au = mi'a you and I = mi jo'u do = mi'o we inclusively = mi jo'u do jo'u da'au = ma'a
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