On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 2:27 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:On Sunday, June 16, 2013 11:31:09 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:58 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2013 10:38:21 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:11 PM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
First let me show an extract from the loglan dictionary.mio (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others independently" sense, the 1st 3rd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e da'. Cf. mu/mo for the "you and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.mu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me jointly" sense, the 1st 2nd person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze tu'. Cf. mo for the "you and I/me independently" sense of we/us, miu/mio for the "I and others" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.miu (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "I/me and others jointly" sense, the 1st 3rd person set variable. Equivalent to 'mi ze da'. Cf. mu/mo for the "you and I/me" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.mo (p) we/us/ourselves, in the "you and I/me independently" sense, the 1st 2nd person multiple variable. Equivalent to 'mi, e tu'. Cf. mu for the "you and I/me jointly" sense of we/us, miu/mio for the "I and others" sense of we/us, and muu/muo for the "you and I and others" sense of we/us.What one might notice first is that there is no equivalent to "mio/miu" which corresponds to English "we"."we" is defined in Wiktionary as "The speakers/writers, or the speaker/writer and at least one other person." so the meaning is pretty clear.
Yeah. That's {mi}.No {mi = le cusku be dei}"we" = {da poi na'ei du mi gi'e prenu zo'u mi .e da}
That doesn't parse.Doesn't parse because of {na'ei} . Try using {na'e} in the parser instead.
No, it doesn't parse because it doesn't parse, {na'e} or no.
The meaning of English "we" is one of {mi}, {mi'a}, {mi'o}, or {ma'a} depending on context. The fact that English speakers have trouble distinguishing between the sharper lines on Lojban's "pronouns" doesn't matter, and attempting to change Lojban because of that is malgli.
It's not malgli.
It is magli to change Lojban to because of difficulties an English speaker may have with Lojban as-is.
This word is present in all major source languages.
That's about as valid an argument as "I'm going to jump off this bridge because everyone else is doing it".
The "source languages" were only used to determine the forms of gismu. The grammar and meanings of words- and especially cmavo, of which the "source languages" were never consulted, does not enter into the equation.
It has clearly defined meaning.{mi} or {za'u mi} has certain implications that "we" doesn't have.And it's wrong to think that Lojban must force the speaker to be semantically precise.In fact if the speaker wants to be vague Lojban must allow for that.
I don't think it "must" do anything. It does, and there's no need to change it
, regardless of how other languages work. It is not difficult to get used to distinguishing what group of people you're talking about. And why do you want such ambiguity anyway?
Vagueness, otherwise known as semantic ambiguity, is fine- even common, but referential ambiguity seems kind of pointless and arguably a BAD idea.
--I wonder what other will say.--
There are many cases in which Lojban is more exact than English. This is just one of them. This topic is a non-issue.However, the CLL says "English-speakers often suffer because they cannot easily distinguish “mi'o” from “mi'a”" which is indeed true. I don't understand why Lojban doesn't have "we" in the sense English, Chinese, Russian, Arabic, Hindi and Spanish have it (although i suggested mi'ai a few days ago).Now to the main issue. Even if we look at the remaining "mu/mo" we'll see that Lojban has only one of them.The CLL says (regarding KOhA3)"All of these pro-sumti represent masses. For example, “mi'o” is the same as “mi joi do”, the mass of me and you considered jointly."This means we can't talk say "Each of us carries the piano" vs. "We as a mass carry the piano" as (at least what Randall Holmes says) a mass should not be converted into the conjunction of its component parts by any logical operator because strictly speaking it shouldn't come with a privileged partitionHowever, jvs has two definitions, the second one (by selpahi) defining {mi'o} as "mi jo'u do" entered in December 2012. I don't remember any discussions of this issue at that time.I don't know if it should be {ro mi'o bevri} vs. {lu'o mi'o bevri} or {ro lu'a mi'o bevri} vs. {lu'o mi'o bevri}.So should we change the CLL to say it means {jo'u}, not {joi}?--To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )