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Re: Aw: [lojban] Default stressed vowel
On Saturday, October 12, 2013 00:08:47 Miles Forster wrote:
> > Von: "Pierre Abbat" <phma@bezitopo.org>
> > 1. Remove all commas.
>
> Yes. In fact, I think the comma should be removed from the language
> altogether, but even now I think the comma should never make a difference.
I'm not proposing to remove the comma from the language. I'm proposing an
algorithm, the first step of which is to remove commas.
> > 2. Separate syllables, working from right to left.
> >
> > soiombos -> so,iom,bos not soi,om,bos
>
> I disagree with *"soi,om,bos" being a well-formed Lojban word. It contains a
> syllable /om/, which has no onset. In my opinion, such syllables are not
> valid Lojban.
I'm not saying that "soi,om,bos" is or is not valid Lojban. I'm saying that,
at this point in the algorithm, "io" is grouped together because it's working
from right to left.
> > 4. Place the stress on one vowel or syllabic consonant, the most prominent
> > vowel in a diphthong or triphthong.
> >
> > kra,TAI,go -> kra,tái,go
> > TAIN -> táin
> > FUI,ste -> fuí,ste
> > spa,tr,XA,pio -> spa,tr,xá,pio
>
> To me, diphthongs are monosyllabic, so the remark about prominent vowels is
> unnecessary. Triphthongs don't really exist.
There is no list of triphthongs in the Book, but there is an example of a word
with triphthongs: "i,iai,i,iai,ion", or something like that.
> {-tai-} is one syllable, and the VV in it could as well be a V, taking the
> stress as a whole.
>
> {-fui-} is a CCV (or a CwV, if you accept this as a thing). The stress can
> only be on the vowel "i".
> > Which vowel or syllabic consonant is stressed by default is independent of
> > where one puts syllable breaks. If you say "spatrxapio" with the last two
> > letters in different syllables, you still have to stress the 'a', not the
> > 'i'. Similarly, if you say "krata,igo", you stress it "kratá,igo".
>
> Here I consider *"krata,igo" an ill-formed word, as it contains a syllable
> without an onset. The only valid syllabification would be kra-tai-go.
I'm modeling the algorithm on the one used in Spanish. In Spanish the default
stress is figured considering all possible diphthongs as diphthongs, even if
they are pronounced as two syllables in some words.
"cambiar" is two syllables, "enviar" is three. There is no indication of this
in the spelling. The only way you can know is by conjugating them: yo cambio,
yo envío.
All 3s past tense forms of the first and second past classes (first conjugation
and second/third conjugation regular - the other two past classes are those
like "puso" which end in unstressed -o and the unique form "fue" which belongs
to both "ser" and "ir") end in stressed -o (-io for the second). Most of these
have a written accent on the -ó. These four do not, because there is no vowel
before a consonant:
dio (one syllable) irregular past of dar
fio (two syllables) regular past of fiar
rio (two syllables - why requires some explanation, which is irrelevant) reír
vio (one syllable) ver
In both Spanish and Lojban, the prominent vowel of "io" is "o", so all four of
these are by default stressed on the "o", so no written accent is needed.
"confio" by default is stressed on the first "o", but there is no such form, so
it has to be written with an accent: "confío" for "I confide", "confió" for "he
confided".
In Lojban, there are no words in which what looks like a diphthong has to be
pronounced as two syllables, but diphthongs can be so pronounced.
> > In a cmevla, if the stress is not marked, it is assumed to be on the
> > default vowel; if that vowel is in a diphthong, the diphthong is
> > stressed. If the stress is somewhere else, it must be marked. I'm not
> > sure how to indicate that there is no stress.
>
> This might be another good reason why it would be good to always mark stress
> on every word that carries one. The absence of any stress marker would then
> indicate a stress-less word. I don't see another way, either.
All brivla have the default stress. Stress on cmavo is optional (except just
before many brivla, where it is avoided, else "lo krataigo" could be misheard
as "lokra tai go"). Whether to mark stress, or its absence, comes up only in
cmevla. Some languages from which a cmevla could be taken don't have stress,
or have other things like tone.
Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.
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