Re: [lojban] [oz] {ny poi cy ke'a falcru}

On 7 February 2014 22:40, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 7:27 PM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:

Or perhaps "lo spesi'u ku poi crino". It has always been said that "lo broda poi brode [ku]" is different from "lo broda ku poi brode".

"ko'a poi brode" has to be the latter, since the restriction applies to an already complete sumti.

Sure.

But, using the convention from the text, we would read it another way. {lo spesi'u} would still, of course, refer to a couple, but then the relative clause would act on the reference of {lo spesi'u} to extract a part of it that is green, even if it does not form a couple any more. The relative clause can, then, create new possibilities of reference. It is still restrictive in the sense that it takes a reference and then restricts it to a part of it.

That's how "poi" works with quantifiers after all. "ci ko'a poi broda" quantifies over the referents of ko'a restricted to those that satisfy broda.

I know about the rule for quantifiers, but it still can be seen as the relative clause adding a statement about the bound variable. It doesn't change the fact that removing the relative clause preserves the truth of a sentence. The parse doesn't help here, by the way.

Only now could I come up with this last interpretation. It surely wasn't intuitive to me. I will reflect on its consequences. But for now, what do you think?

But is there any other interpretation even available for "ko'a poi broda"?

{ko'a} and {ny} are bad examples, because their referents are supposed to be clear, and the clue given by the relative clause will be hardly useful, except perhaps to remind the reader or listener.

Consider other examples:
(1) {ti poi toldi}: At least in the way my mind works, when I point at something, I point at a specific thing; I just need to give a clue to the listener about what I am exactly pointing at. It is not like I am pointing at a bunch of things and selecting a butterfly out of them.

(2) {ma'a po'u lo pilno be me'o denpa bu girzu}: When I use a personal pronoun, I have a clear conscience about who I am talking about. Again, I just have to give a clue to the se cusku because the pronoun is too general.

(3) {ra poi danlu}: An alternative to {lo bi'u nai mlatu}.

And, finally, if we want to talk about part of the referent, there is always {lo me ko'a}.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.