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Re: [lojban] unquantified sumti with restrictive relative clauses in xorlo
la'o me. Martin Bays .me cusku
Recall the following production:
sumti5 <- quantifier? sumti6 [relative-clauses]
I want to understand the semantics of this in the case that there is no
quantifier, and there is a restrictive clause among the relative clauses.
{ko'a poi broda}, in other words.
[...]
I can see six broad approaches to interpreting such expressions, i.e. those of
the form {ko'a poi broda}.
(i) Consider it an error, or just ignore any restrictives.
I don't like this option, because it would be an exception. I believe
{poi} can be defined in such a way that the same rule handles both
quantified and unquantified sumti.
(ii) Declare that in this case (and this case alone), there is an implicit
quantifier after all.
This is certainly how if feels at times, but it's probably not necessary
for it to actually be the case at a formal level.
By the way, the case of {lo broda poi brode ku'o ku} needs to be looked
at as well. An outer quantifier wouldn't affect the {poi} clause here,
but it still needs to be defined what it means and how it differs from
{noi}.
(iii) Have it pick out some referents such that they satisfy the restrictives:
ko'a poi broda -> zo'e noi me ko'a gi'e broda
This is pretty much my take on it. I like the general definition of {poi
broda} == {je poi'i* broda} because it works in all cases, both with
sumti and with selbri, and it doesn't matter if there are quantifiers
present. (it is equivalent to your definition, but works better in real
life as an afterthought, not that that's very relevant here)
(iv) Have it pick out those referents which each satisfy broda:
ko'a poi broda ->
zo'e noi ro da zo'u go da me ke'a go ge da me ko'a gi broda
I think this doesn't fit with the current system where the argument
places of predicates aren't defined as distributive or collective (they
should be in my opinion).
If you want distributive satisfaction, {ko'a poi ro ke'a broda} works.
(v) Something along the lines of (iv), but more in line with plural logic /
mereology, perhaps by requiring the obvious maximality condition, i.e.
ko'a poi broda ->
zo'e noi ge ge me ko'a gi broda gi ro da poi ge ge ke'a xi re me ke'a gi
ke'a me ko'a gi ke'a broda cu du ke'a
, perhaps making it an error if there is no unique such maximum, or
perhaps taking all the maxima together (i.e. taking the join).
This is also a bit too specific, like (iv).
(vi) Something along the lines of (v), but with no formal rule - just an idea
that the intended referents of {ko'a poi broda} are picked out among the
referents of {ko'a} by virtue of their brodaing.
Isn't this similar to (iii) as well?
The usage I've seen could fit any of (iii)-(vi), I think. So, taking various
degrees of liberty, could CLL's use of restrictives - although of course they
had implicit quantifiers, so are not really relevant.
There is definitely a lot of contrasting usage between {ko'a poi} and
{ko'a noi}, with meaningful distinctions being felt by the speakers.
That, and the fact that I think the general definition of {poi} in terms
of {je} (or gi'e) works made me believe that something like (iii) is the
most practical solution.
We could try to write up a table of all the cases:
ko'a poi broda
lo me ko'a je poi'i broda / zo'e noi me ko'a gi'e broda
PA ko'a poi broda
PA me ko'a je poi'i broda / PA da poi me ko'a gi'e broda
ko'a noi broda
ko'a (to ri broda toi)
PA ko'a noi broda
PA ko'a (to ri broda toi)
lo broda poi brode
lo broda je poi'i broda / zo'e noi broda gi'e brode
lo broda noi brode
lo broda noi brode / zo'e noi broda (to ri brode toi)
(and {lo broda ku NOI} are the same as {ko'a NOI}, as noted)
lo PA broda poi brode
lo PA broda je poi'i brode
zo'e noi broda gi'e brode gi'e PA mei
lo PA broda noi brode
lo PA broda (to ri brode toi)
So a lot of these are equivalent as long as no quantifier is added, but
they all use the same expansions which work whether or not there is a
quantifier (or so I hope, let's look for mistakes!).
Oh, there is also {PA broda NOI}:
PA broda poi brode
PA broda je poi'i brode / PA da poi ke'a broda gi'e brode
PA broda noi brode
PA da (to ri broda toi) poi ke'a broda
Some of this depends on {ri}'s ability to repeat {da} and quantified
terms. Writing {PA da (to da broda toi)} would be weird, as the {da}
could just as well be a new variable.
Anyway, my general idea here was to attach {poi} directly to the selbri
when possible (using {je poi'i}). When that doesn't work, the sumti
needs to be turned into a selbri, but with quantified terms that is
already part of xorlo's definition (PA ko'a == PA me ko'a).
mi'e la selpa'i mu'o
--
* {poi'i} (http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/poi%27i) is an old idea
which has gained some popularity more recently. I personally consider it
a great cmavo with a lot of utility and have suggested giving it a
normal cmavo form (*cough*voi*cough*)
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