[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [lojban] Why left-grouping of tanru?



  Ah, but the paper that you cite is about Adjectival hierarchies (something I've noticed decades ago, and also wondered about, ever since I saw a sign written by someone who was obviously not a native speaker because of the misordering of adjectives.  Glad to see stuff written about it).  This is not about grouping at all.  Quite the contrary.  The examples given in the paper are, almost without exception, about the order of adjectives that are all at the same level (that is, modifying the noun), and not their grouping. e.g. "a small green bottle" (lo cmalu je crino botpi) and "a vegetarian Russian lawyer" (lo nalre'ucti je rusko fladju)  What associative grouping is really talking about is precisely the examples I did give, which you dismissed as words that we might hyphenate or adverbs.  But that is precisely the point.  Because remember, since we don't have in lojban the traditional parts of speech  of noun, verb, adjective, and adverb, what brivla  function like can only be determined by their position in a bridi or clause.  "broda brode" in isolation is the equivalent of either a noun adjunct or an adjective modifying a noun, or an adverbs modifying a verb (which in English is usually the other order) . "broda brode brodi", otoh, is either adverb adjective noun (dull gray house, frighteningly fast ride), (adjective/noun adjunct-noun)  noun (stretch limo driver) or adverb adverb verb (very surprisingly caught), the latter construction not appearing often in English, and in those constructions, English is left grouping just like lojban.  Contrariwise, constructionslike the ones you cited, adjective adjective noun, don't really group at all (usually).  They are "adj. AND adj. noun". (otoh, verb adverb adverb constructions in English, DO right group (run really quickly)

                        --gejyspa



On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:50 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, September 4, 2014 3:03:09 PM UTC-4, gejyspa wrote:
  There are plenty of left groupings in English:

  newspaper editor strike
  electric light socket
  bass guitar player
  first base umpire
  television series director
  very fast typist

  etc etc
  The fact that you happened to picked examples that right grouping (and btw, bright yellow star is LEFT grouping, not right.  The color is bright yellow)
is jsut from your own biases....  :-)
            --gejyspa, 


I don't think so. First "bright yellow star" could mean "bright yellow" but more likely it means "bright star that is yellow". I think there is something important to notice about most of your examples. The first two words are very close to something we might hyphenate. ("very fast" is the clear exception, but very is an adverb.) And that goes to my point. It makes more sense if there where a word for this hyphenation. And we kind of already have that actually in `bo`. In these cases it would make more sense to have to use `bo` than it does for my cases.

Also this isn't just my bias. Although it is hard for me to speak for any language beyond English, but there are known patterns from which I am drawing my opinion. See http://www.lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/25/paper1473.pdf for example.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.