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Re: [lojban] Logical scope of LAhE



la .dan. cu cusku di'e
Thank you Ilmen for asking, and selpa'i for answering.

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 1:41 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de
<mailto:seladwa@gmx.de>> wrote:

    Number 1) is correct - {tu'a} is opaque. (The rest of LAhE should be
    as well, though Martin seemed to be hesitant about that; see the
    recent-ish tersmu thread)


This surprised me a little, and I'm happy that there has been a
consensus. What about jai?

Example: {da jai se djica mi}

Which of the following does this mean:
1) mi djica lo su'u da zo'u da co'e
2) da zo'u mi djica lo su'u da co'e

(I would expect 2.)

Yes, number 2). {jai} creates a new selbri, and {jai}-places do not differ from any other places. Placing a bare {Q da} in any sumti place results in them being bound in the most immediate prenex.


    Yes, or you could say that it's the {be} that's opaque, since {broda
    be su'o da} is itself a selbri. The same happens with tenses inside
    {be}-clauses. Of course when the {da} is quantified inside a
    sub-bridi, then its scope won't come out either, which is what
    happens with {poi'i}, or {noi} in {zo'e noi}.


Good! What about the scope of pe?

{pe su'o da} being short for {poi su'o da zo'u ke'a co'e da}, we can see that the variable belongs (is bound) "inside" the {pe}.


Btw, I forgot to comment on option 3 from Ilmen's original post:
3) Ambiguous scope.

Ambiguous scope can never be allowed in Lojban. It is never an option, or it isn't Lojban.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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