Re: [lojban] Re: Question about Lojbanized Name in Unix/Linux

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

    Pointless to go around this argument again, when it was covered in that other thread. Once again, I believe your first point to be antidispostive, because of the fact that it specifically talks about how atypical stress "must be [emphasis added]" marked in cmevla, but no such statement about ma'ovla thereby implying there is a distinction between the two cases (otherwise they could/would? have been conflated to "Lojbanized names and lojban structure words (cmavo) may be stress on any syllable").  But your second argument, a new one, is a bit more on point, as it specifically points to a case where pronunciation differences do not distinguish two words.  But nonetheless, again, no such indication that syllabic consonants "must be marked as...", so once again implying that stress in cmevla is sui generis. 

                  --gejyspa

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2014, Jorge Llambías wrote:

They are not different words in Lojban, just (very slightly) different
permitted pronunciations of the same word. Even the stress in cmevla
doesn't change the word, so "aleksándr" and "aléksandr" and "áleksandr" are
all valid pronounciations of the same word. Stress is only important in
brivla.

   Just a side note that not everyone agrees with Jorge's last assertion (e.g. me).  I've never seen that said officially anywhere, and have argued against that point in, for example, this thread: https://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners%40lojban.org/msg04820.html

  Perhaps the next iteration of the CLL will be explicit on this point

CLL https://lojban.github.io/cll/3/9/ says:

<<

 Primary stress is required on the penultimate syllable of Lojban content words (called “brivla”). Lojbanized names may be stressed on any syllable, but if a syllable other than the penultimate is stressed, the syllable (or at least its vowel) must be capitalized in writing. Lojban structural words (called “cmavo”) may be stressed on any syllable or none at all. However, primary stress may not be used in a syllable just preceding a brivla, unless a pause divides them; otherwise, the two words may run together.

>>

So both cmevla and cmavo may be stressed on any syllable according to CLL. This is not absolutely explicit that changing the stress does not change the word into a different word, but it's hard to argue that the same rule that applies to cmavo does not apply to cmevla when they are described with the same words in the same paragraph.

In a different section https://lojban.github.io/cll/3/4/ , CLL says:

<<The syllabic consonants of Lojban, [l̩], [m̩], [n̩], and [r̩], are variants of the non-syllabic [l], [m], [n], and [r] respectively. They normally have only a limited distribution, appearing in Lojban names and borrowings, although in principle any “l”, “m”, “n”, or “r” may be pronounced syllabically. If a syllabic consonant appears next to a “l”, “m”, “n”, or “r” that is not syllabic, it may not be clear which is which:

4.1)   brlgan.
       [br̩l gan]
       or [brl̩ gan]

is a hypothetical Lojbanized name with more than one valid pronunciation; however it is pronounced, it remains the same word.

>>

So the idea of names with more than one valid pronunciation remaining the same word is also there.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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