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Re: [lojban] {te fanza}?



On 06/02/2015 03:09 PM, la sel wrote:
"This also constitutes a good use case for {jai}: .i lo sance cu jai fanza mi". Thanks for the reminder that x1 should be an abstraction. Question: the definitions of fanza that I've seen call for an event in x1. Does that allow for property abstractions? I think I'm comfortable with the notion that a property can annoy, even if an event is required to "experience" most/all properties.
The idea of using a property here is that behind the scenes, the selbri constructs the relevant event and can make a claim as to whether or not that event occurs. Look at {kakne}, for instance. It makes no sense to say something like {.i mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise}, so we can conclude that kakne2 must involve kakne1, and decide that kakne2 must be a property abstraction. For example, {.i mi kakne lo nu ce'u limna} "I can swim". Behind the scenes, {kakne} constructs an event by applying the property to the x1, filling in {ce'u} with {mi}, produces {lo nu mi limna}, and claims that this event is possible. In particular, it makes the claim {.i lo nu mi limna cu cumki} and perhaps adds some connotation of agency/volition. (It turns out that you can think of a lot of words/phrases in lojban as formalizations of applying connotation to otherwise "plain" words/phrases.)

In the specific case of {fanza}, the predicate is stating that the x2 having the x1 (as a property) is what is annoying to the x2.

As for what types of sumti that definitions call for, the type recommendations in the definitions are just that: recommendations. When it became understood that thinking of places as properties was a worthwhile way to express connections between places (e.g. how kakne2 requires kakne1), many places for which the dictionary recommends event-abstractions began to be filled with property-abstractions in certain texts or channels (e.g. IRC).

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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