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Re: [lojban] xoi and new soi as bridi relative clause





On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 7:04 PM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:
Le dimanche 26 juillet 2015 21:34:54 UTC, Ilmen a écrit :
On 26/07/2015 15:29, guskant wrote: 
Le jeudi 23 juillet 2015 21:56:28 UTC, Ilmen a écrit :
ro da poi ke'a su'o de viska cu se kanla su'o di
= ro da poi su'o de zo'u ke'a de viska ku'o su'o di zo'u di da kanla
= ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kanla
= roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai ganai suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska gi suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla
= roldza fa loka ko'a ce'ai zilvlina fa lodu'u jitfa fa lodu'u suzdza fa loka ko'a ce'u viska kei kei kei fe lodu'u suzdza fa loka ce'u ko'a kanla

It seems correct. And then how do you transform it into a prenex normal form?
{ro da zo'u ganai su'o de zo'u da de viska gi su'o di zo'u di da kanla}
= ∀x((∃y(viska(x,y))) → (∃z(kanla(z,x)))

# Application of the "(∃xϕ) → ψ" ≡ "∀x(ϕ → ψ)" transformation:
≡ ∀x∀y(viska(x,y) → (∃z(kanla(z,x)))

# Application of the "ϕ → (∃xψ)" ≡ "∃x(ϕ → ψ)" transformation:
≡ ∀x∀y(∃z(viska(x,y) → kanla(z,x))

= {ro da ro de su'o di zo'u ganai da de viska gi di da kanla} (prenex normal form)

I appreciate your formation. One point to confirm is about your first formation using {roldza} and {suzdza}. That is one of a reasonable interpretation of a bridi nested in {poi}-clause, and I agree to that interpretation. Is that a common interpretation among lojban speakers? In fact, la xorxes seems to be against it, and the prenex in {poi}-clause cannot be put out according to his interpretation, and his interpretation is also consistent.

Why do I seem to be against it? I agree with Ilmen's expansions, and notice that he does have a prenex in a poi clause in one of the steps.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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