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[Wikichanges] Wiki page ''Gismu'' Agentive And Non-Agentive changed by gleki
The page ''Gismu'' Agentive And Non-Agentive was changed by gleki at 16:14 UTC
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- Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",
+ As ((pne|I)) understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.<br /><br />For a '''very''' brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list.<br /><br />''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?''<br />* ''gernrgativiti'' --((And)) (mi stidi)<br /><br /><br />Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",
the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See ((Ergativity)).
- __Non-Agentive form__ & its corresponding __Agentive__:
+ __Non-Agentive form__ & its corresponding __Agentive__:
''cfari'' begins-------------''cfagau'' initiates
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- * One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:
+ * One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:
** ''smuni'' has meaning---------------''tersmu'' interprets
** ''tatpi'' is tired------------------''seltatpi'' tires
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;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses
--((And))
- * Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''�xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip))
+ * Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''�xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip))
* It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.)
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As ((pne|I)) understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.
For a '''very''' brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list.
''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?''
* ''gernrgativiti'' --((And)) (mi stidi)
Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",
the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See ((Ergativity)).
__Non-Agentive form__ & its corresponding __Agentive__:
''cfari'' begins-------------''cfagau'' initiates
''denpa'' pauses-------------''depygau'' delays
''tolcfa'' comes to a stop---''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts)
''sezyxru'' reverts----------''xruti'' restores
''cenba'' varies-------------''cenbygau'' or (''cnegau'') alters
''jelca'' burns--------------''jelgau'' ignites
''snura'' is secure----------''bandu'' protects
''masno'' is slow------------''snogau'' retards (or ''jabre'' brakes)
''muvdu'' moves--------------''muvgau'' causes to move
''mrobi'o'' dies-------------''catra'' kills
''banro'' develops-----------''banrygau'' nurtures
''zenba'' increases----------''zengau'' augments
''banzu'' suffices-----------''bazgau'' fulfills
''culno'' is full------------''tisna'' fills
''basti'' takes the place of--''basygau'' replaces
''klama'' goes----------------''bevri'' conveys
''bilma'' is sick-------------''bilmygau'' sickens
''bredi'' is ready------------''redgau'' prepares
''carna'' turns---------------''cargau'' rotates
''selcfipu'' is confused------''cfipu'' confuses
''cilre'' learns---------------''ctuca'' teaches
''ckeji'' feels ashamed--------''kejgau'' humiliates
''kakne'' is able---------------''curmi'' allows
''curve'' is pure--------------''cuvgau'' purifies
''danfu'' is an answer----------''dafsku'' replies (or ''frati'')
''drani'' is correct------------''dragau'' rectifies
''farlu'' falls-----------------''falgau'' drops
''fatne'' is backwards----------''fatygau'' reverses
''febvi'' comes to a boil-------''fabgau'' boils
''porpi'' comes apart-----------''popygau'' breaks
''fukpi'' is a copy-------------''fukyzba'' duplicates
''gacri'' is a cover------------''gairgau'' covers over
''ganlo'' is closed-------------''ganlygau'' closes
''gusni'' illumines-------------''gusygau'' illuminates
''jdika'' contracts-------------''jdikygau'' decreases
''jinru'' bathes----------------''jirgau'' immerses
''jorne'' is joined to----------''jongau'' connects
''katna'' cutter----------------''katnygau'' cuts
''burcu'' brush-----------------''bruzu'e'' paints
''komcu'' is a comb-------------''komzu'e'' combs
''korcu'' is bent---------------''krogau'' bends
''krefu'' repeats---------------''refygau'' causes to recur
''kunti'' is empty--------------''kutygau'' vacates
''gapru'' is above---------------''lafti'' lifts
''lunbe'' is bare----------------''lubgau'' denudes
''manku'' is dark----------------''mangau'' darkens
''mapti'' fits-------------------''matygau'' matches
''muvdu'' is in motion------------''muvgau'' moves
''selnupre'' is a promise---------''nupre'' promises
''pagre'' penetrates--------------''gregau'' causes to penetrate
''panlo'' is a slice--------------''panlyzba'' slices
''pijne'' is a pin----------------''pijnylasna'' pins
''pindi'' is poor-----------------''pidgau'' impoverishes
''preti'' is a question-----------''retsku'' asks a question (or ''tese preti'')
''preja'' expands-----------------''pejgau'' spreads
''cpana'' is on (''zvati'' at)----''punji'' puts on/at
''punli'' is a swelling-----------''pulgau'' swells
''ranji'' lasts-------------------''ranjygau'' causes to last (makes lasting)
''ranti'' is soft------------------''rangau'' softens
''ricfu'' is rich------------------''cfugau'' enriches
''panzi'' offspring----------------''rorci'' procreates
''viknu'' is thick-----------------''viknygau'' thickens
''ruble'' is weak-------------------''blegau'' weakens
''runme'' is melting----------------''rumgau'' makes melt
''runta'' dissolves------------------''runtygau'' makes dissolve
''sepli'' is apart-------------------''fendi'' divides
''nenri'' is within------------------''setca'' inserts
''jbini'' is between-----------------''setca'' interposes
''spoja'' explodes-------------------''pojgau'' blows up
''sraku'' is sharp-------------------''rakygau'' scratches
''sudga'' is dry---------------------''sudgau'' dries off
''sutra'' is fast--------------------''sutygau'' hastens
''tcena'' stretches------------------''tengau'' extends
''terpa'' fears----------------------''tepygau'' frightenss
''tinsa'' is stiff-------------------''tensygau'' stiffens
''titla'' is sweet--------------------''titygau'' sweetens
''tordu'' is short--------------------''torgau'' shortens
''tsali'' is strong--------------------''tsagau'' strengthens
''tsapi'' ia a spice-------------------''tsapygau'' seasons
''vasru'' contains---------------------''vasygau'' encloses
''vlipa'' is powerful-------------------''vligau'' empowers
''vreji'' is a record of----------------''rejgau'' records
''vrusi'' is a flavor-------------------''vusyga'e'' tastes
''panci'' is an odor---------------------''sumne'' smells
''zasti'' exists-------------------------''zbasu'' creates
''zekri'' is a crime---------------------''zerzukte'' commits a crime
''zifre'' is free------------------------''zifygau'' liberates
(There are doubtless others.)
* The place structure of ''xruti'' has changed during its history...
** A note [http://66.111.43.200/~jkominek/nuzban/wiki/index.php?Gismu%20list%20errata|here] says (1994) that ''xruti'' was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the ''gismu'' lists of 9-6-94.
** I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift.
* Lojban distinguishes ((forms of causation))...One could extend the foregoing series with ''each of the others''.
* One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:
** ''smuni'' has meaning---------------''tersmu'' interprets
** ''tatpi'' is tired------------------''seltatpi'' tires
** ''fengu'' is angry------------------''selfengu'' angers
** ''torni'' is twisting---------------''seltorni'' twists
** ''xalni'' is panicked---------------''selxalni'' terrifies
** ''zgike'' is music------------------''selzgi'' makes music
----
That's a very useful list. We shouldn't overlook the usefulness of ''zil-'', though:
;''zilsti'' comes to a stop :''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts)
;''zilxru'' reverts :''xruti'' restores
;''zilcatra'' dies :''catra'' kills
;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses
--((And))
* Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''�xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip))
* It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.)
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