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[Wikichanges] Wiki page ''Gismu'' Agentive And Non-Agentive changed by gleki



The page ''Gismu'' Agentive And Non-Agentive was changed by gleki at 14:16 UTC

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''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?''
* ''gernrgativiti'' --((And)) (mi stidi)
- 

Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",
the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See ((Ergativity)).

- <br />__Non-Agentive form__ &amp; its corresponding __Agentive__:<br /><br />''cfari'' begins-------------''cfagau'' initiates<br />''denpa'' pauses-------------''depygau'' delays<br />''tolcfa'' comes to a stop---''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts)<br />''sezyxru'' reverts----------''xruti'' restores<br />''cenba'' varies-------------''cenbygau'' or (''cnegau'') alters<br />''jelca'' burns--------------''jelgau'' ignites<br />''snura'' is secure----------''bandu'' protects<br />''masno'' is slow------------''snogau'' retards (or ''jabre'' brakes)<br />''muvdu'' moves--------------''muvgau'' causes to move<br />''mrobi'o'' dies-------------''catra'' kills<br />''banro'' develops-----------''banrygau'' nurtures<br />''zenba'' increases----------''zengau'' augments<br />''banzu'' suffices-----------''bazgau'' fulfills<br />''culno'' is full------------''tisna'' fills<br />''basti'' takes the place of--''basygau'' replaces<br />''klama'' goes----------------''bevri'' conveys<br />''bilma'' is sick-------------''bilmygau'' sickens<br />''bredi'' is ready------------''redgau'' prepares<br />''carna'' turns---------------''cargau'' rotates<br />''selcfipu'' is confused------''cfipu'' confuses<br />''cilre'' learns---------------''ctuca'' teaches<br />''ckeji'' feels ashamed--------''kejgau'' humiliates<br />''kakne'' is able---------------''curmi'' allows<br />''curve'' is pure--------------''cuvgau'' purifies<br />''danfu'' is an answer----------''dafsku'' replies (or ''frati'')<br />''drani'' is correct------------''dragau'' rectifies<br />''farlu'' falls-----------------''falgau'' drops<br />''fatne'' is backwards----------''fatygau'' reverses<br />''febvi'' comes to a boil-------''fabgau'' boils<br />''porpi'' comes apart-----------''popygau'' breaks<br />''fukpi'' is a copy-------------''fukyzba'' duplicates<br />''gacri'' is a cover------------''gairgau'' covers over<br />''ganlo'' is closed-------------''ganlygau'' closes<br />''gusni'' illumines-------------''gusygau'' illuminates<br />''jdika'' contracts-------------''jdikygau'' decreases<br />''jinru'' bathes----------------''jirgau'' immerses<br />''jorne'' is joined to----------''jongau'' connects<br />''katna'' cutter----------------''katnygau'' cuts<br />''burcu'' brush-----------------''bruzu'e'' paints<br />''komcu'' is a comb-------------''komzu'e'' combs<br />''korcu'' is bent---------------''krogau'' bends<br />''krefu'' repeats---------------''refygau'' causes to recur<br />''kunti'' is empty--------------''kutygau'' vacates<br />''gapru'' is above---------------''lafti'' lifts<br />''lunbe'' is bare----------------''lubgau'' denudes<br />''manku'' is dark----------------''mangau'' darkens<br />''mapti'' fits-------------------''matygau'' matches<br />''muvdu'' is in motion------------''muvgau'' moves<br />''selnupre'' is a promise---------''nupre'' promises<br />''pagre'' penetrates--------------''gregau'' causes to penetrate<br />''panlo'' is a slice--------------''panlyzba'' slices<br />''pijne'' is a pin----------------''pijnylasna'' pins<br />''pindi'' is poor-----------------''pidgau'' impoverishes<br />''preti'' is a question-----------''retsku'' asks a question (or ''tese preti'')<br />''preja'' expands-----------------''pejgau'' spreads<br />''cpana'' is on (''zvati'' at)----''punji'' puts on/at<br />''punli'' is a swelling-----------''pulgau'' swells<br />''ranji'' lasts-------------------''ranjygau'' causes to last (makes lasting)<br />''ranti'' is soft------------------''rangau'' softens<br />''ricfu'' is rich------------------''cfugau'' enriches<br />''panzi'' offspring----------------''rorci'' procreates<br />''viknu'' is thick-----------------''viknygau'' thickens<br />''ruble'' is weak-------------------''blegau'' weakens<br />''runme'' is melting----------------''rumgau'' makes melt<br />''runta'' dissolves------------------''runtygau'' makes dissolve<br />''sepli'' is apart-------------------''fendi'' divides<br />''nenri'' is within------------------''setca'' inserts<br />''jbini'' is between-----------------''setca'' interposes<br />''spoja'' explodes-------------------''pojgau'' blows up<br />''sraku'' is sharp-------------------''rakygau'' scratches<br />''sudga'' is dry---------------------''sudgau'' dries off<br />''sutra'' is fast--------------------''sutygau'' hastens<br />''tcena'' stretches------------------''tengau'' extends<br />''terpa'' fears----------------------''tepygau'' frightenss<br />''tinsa'' is stiff-------------------''tensygau'' stiffens<br />''titla'' is sweet--------------------''titygau'' sweetens<br />''tordu'' is short--------------------''torgau'' shortens<br />''tsali'' is strong--------------------''tsagau'' strengthens<br />''tsapi'' ia a spice-------------------''tsapygau'' seasons<br />''vasru'' contains---------------------''vasygau'' encloses<br />''vlipa'' is powerful-------------------''vligau'' empowers<br />''vreji'' is a record of----------------''rejgau'' records<br />''vrusi'' is a flavor-------------------''vusyga'e'' tastes<br />''panci'' is an odor---------------------''sumne'' smells<br />''zasti'' exists-------------------------''zbasu'' creates<br />''zekri'' is a crime---------------------''zerzukte'' commits a crime<br />''zifre'' is free------------------------''zifygau'' liberates<br />
+ !Non-Agentive form &amp; it's corresponding Agentive:<br />|| cfari | begins | cfagau | initiates <br /> denpa | pauses | depygau | delays <br /> tolcfa | comes to a stop | sisti/dicra | halts/interrupts) <br /> sezyxru | reverts | xruti | restores <br /> cenba | varies | cenbygau/cnegau | alters <br /> jelca | burns | jelgau | ignites <br /> snura | is secure | bandu | protects <br /> masno | is slow | snogau/jabre | retards/brakes) <br /> muvdu | moves | muvgau | causes to move <br /> mrobi'o | dies | catra | kills <br /> banro | develops | banrygau | nurtures <br /> zenba | increases | zengau | augments <br /> banzu | suffices | bazgau | fulfills <br /> culno | is full | tisna | fills <br /> basti | takes the place of | basygau | replaces <br /> klama | goes | bevri | conveys <br /> bilma | is sick | bilmygau | sickens <br /> bredi | is ready | redgau | prepares <br /> carna | turns | cargau | rotates <br /> selcfipu | is confused | cfipu | confuses <br /> cilre | learns | ctuca | teaches <br /> ckeji | feels ashamed | kejgau | humiliates <br /> kakne | is able | curmi | allows <br /> curve | is pure | cuvgau | purifies <br /> danfu | is an answer | dafsku/frati | replies <br /> drani | is correct | dragau | rectifies <br /> farlu | falls | falgau | drops <br /> fatne | is backwards | fatygau | reverses <br /> febvi | comes to a boil | fabgau | boils <br /> porpi | comes apart | popygau | breaks <br /> fukpi | is a copy | fukyzba | duplicates <br /> gacri | is a cover | gairgau | covers over <br /> ganlo | is closed | ganlygau | closes <br /> gusni | illumines | gusygau | illuminates <br /> jdika | contracts | jdikygau | decreases <br /> jinru | bathes | jirgau | immerses <br /> jorne | is joined to | jongau | connects <br /> katna | cutter | katnygau | cuts <br /> burcu | brush | bruzu'e | paints <br /> komcu | is a comb | komzu'e | combs <br /> korcu | is bent | krogau | bends <br /> krefu | repeats | refygau | causes to recur <br /> kunti | is empty | kutygau | vacates <br /> gapru | is above | lafti | lifts <br /> lunbe | is bare | lubgau | denudes <br /> manku | is dark | mangau | darkens <br /> mapti | fits | matygau | matches <br /> muvdu | is in motion | muvgau | moves <br /> selnupre | is a promise | nupre | promises <br /> pagre | penetrates | gregau | causes to penetrate <br /> panlo | is a slice | panlyzba | slices <br /> pijne | is a pin | pijnylasna | pins <br /> pindi | is poor | pidgau | impoverishes <br /> preti | is a question | retsku/tese preti | asks a question <br /> preja | expands | pejgau | spreads <br /> cpana | is on | punji | puts on/at <br /> zvati | at | punji | puts on/at <br /> punli | is a swelling | pulgau | swells <br /> ranji | lasts | ranjygau | causes to last (makes lasting) <br /> ranti | is soft | rangau | softens <br /> ricfu | is rich | cfugau | enriches <br /> panzi | offspring | rorci | procreates <br /> viknu | is thick | viknygau | thickens <br /> ruble | is weak | blegau | weakens <br /> runme | is melting | rumgau | makes melt <br /> runta | dissolves | runtygau | makes dissolve <br /> sepli | is apart | fendi | divides <br /> nenri | is within | setca | inserts <br /> jbini | is between | setca | interposes <br /> spoja | explodes | pojgau | blows up <br /> sraku | is sharp | rakygau | scratches <br /> sudga | is dry | sudgau | dries off <br /> sutra | is fast | sutygau | hastens <br /> tcena | stretches | tengau | extends <br /> terpa | fears | tepygau | frightenss <br /> tinsa | is stiff | tensygau | stiffens <br /> titla | is sweet | titygau | sweetens <br /> tordu | is short | torgau | shortens <br /> tsali | is strong | tsagau | strengthens <br /> tsapi | ia a spice | tsapygau | seasons <br /> vasru | contains | vasygau | encloses <br /> vlipa | is powerful | vligau | empowers <br /> vreji | is a record of | rejgau | records <br /> vrusi | is a flavor | vusyga'e | tastes <br /> panci | is an odor | sumne | smells <br /> zasti | exists | zbasu | creates <br /> zekri | is a crime | zerzukte | commits a crime <br /> zifre | is free | zifygau | liberates ||
(There are doubtless others.)


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;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses
--((And))
- * Wouldn't &quot;is killed&quot; be better as a translation than &quot;dies&quot;? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying &quot;without a cause&quot;. (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''�xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip))
+ * Wouldn't &quot;is killed&quot; be better as a translation than &quot;dies&quot;? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying &quot;without a cause&quot;. (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip))
* It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.)
- 




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As ((pne|I)) understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.



For a '''very''' brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list.



''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?''

* ''gernrgativiti'' --((And)) (mi stidi)



Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",

the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See ((Ergativity)).



!Non-Agentive form & it's corresponding Agentive:

|| cfari | begins | cfagau | initiates 

 denpa | pauses | depygau | delays 

 tolcfa | comes to a stop | sisti/dicra | halts/interrupts) 

 sezyxru | reverts | xruti | restores 

 cenba | varies | cenbygau/cnegau | alters 

 jelca | burns | jelgau | ignites 

 snura | is secure | bandu | protects 

 masno | is slow | snogau/jabre | retards/brakes) 

 muvdu | moves | muvgau | causes to move 

 mrobi'o | dies | catra | kills 

 banro | develops | banrygau | nurtures 

 zenba | increases | zengau | augments 

 banzu | suffices | bazgau | fulfills 

 culno | is full | tisna | fills 

 basti | takes the place of | basygau | replaces 

 klama | goes | bevri | conveys 

 bilma | is sick | bilmygau | sickens 

 bredi | is ready | redgau | prepares 

 carna | turns | cargau | rotates 

 selcfipu | is confused | cfipu | confuses 

 cilre | learns | ctuca | teaches 

 ckeji | feels ashamed | kejgau | humiliates 

 kakne | is able | curmi | allows 

 curve | is pure | cuvgau | purifies 

 danfu | is an answer | dafsku/frati | replies 

 drani | is correct | dragau | rectifies 

 farlu | falls | falgau | drops 

 fatne | is backwards | fatygau | reverses 

 febvi | comes to a boil | fabgau | boils 

 porpi | comes apart | popygau | breaks 

 fukpi | is a copy | fukyzba | duplicates 

 gacri | is a cover | gairgau | covers over 

 ganlo | is closed | ganlygau | closes 

 gusni | illumines | gusygau | illuminates 

 jdika | contracts | jdikygau | decreases 

 jinru | bathes | jirgau | immerses 

 jorne | is joined to | jongau | connects 

 katna | cutter | katnygau | cuts 

 burcu | brush | bruzu'e | paints 

 komcu | is a comb | komzu'e | combs 

 korcu | is bent | krogau | bends 

 krefu | repeats | refygau | causes to recur 

 kunti | is empty | kutygau | vacates 

 gapru | is above | lafti | lifts 

 lunbe | is bare | lubgau | denudes 

 manku | is dark | mangau | darkens 

 mapti | fits | matygau | matches 

 muvdu | is in motion | muvgau | moves 

 selnupre | is a promise | nupre | promises 

 pagre | penetrates | gregau | causes to penetrate 

 panlo | is a slice | panlyzba | slices 

 pijne | is a pin | pijnylasna | pins 

 pindi | is poor | pidgau | impoverishes 

 preti | is a question | retsku/tese preti | asks a question 

 preja | expands | pejgau | spreads 

 cpana | is on | punji | puts on/at 

 zvati | at | punji | puts on/at 

 punli | is a swelling | pulgau | swells 

 ranji | lasts | ranjygau | causes to last (makes lasting) 

 ranti | is soft | rangau | softens 

 ricfu | is rich | cfugau | enriches 

 panzi | offspring | rorci | procreates 

 viknu | is thick | viknygau | thickens 

 ruble | is weak | blegau | weakens 

 runme | is melting | rumgau | makes melt 

 runta | dissolves | runtygau | makes dissolve 

 sepli | is apart | fendi | divides 

 nenri | is within | setca | inserts 

 jbini | is between | setca | interposes 

 spoja | explodes | pojgau | blows up 

 sraku | is sharp | rakygau | scratches 

 sudga | is dry | sudgau | dries off 

 sutra | is fast | sutygau | hastens 

 tcena | stretches | tengau | extends 

 terpa | fears | tepygau | frightenss 

 tinsa | is stiff | tensygau | stiffens 

 titla | is sweet | titygau | sweetens 

 tordu | is short | torgau | shortens 

 tsali | is strong | tsagau | strengthens 

 tsapi | ia a spice | tsapygau | seasons 

 vasru | contains | vasygau | encloses 

 vlipa | is powerful | vligau | empowers 

 vreji | is a record of | rejgau | records 

 vrusi | is a flavor | vusyga'e | tastes 

 panci | is an odor | sumne | smells 

 zasti | exists | zbasu | creates 

 zekri | is a crime | zerzukte | commits a crime 

 zifre | is free | zifygau | liberates ||

(There are doubtless others.)



* The place structure of ''xruti'' has changed during its history...

** A note [http://66.111.43.200/~jkominek/nuzban/wiki/index.php?Gismu%20list%20errata|here] says (1994) that ''xruti'' was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the ''gismu'' lists of 9-6-94.

** I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift.



* Lojban distinguishes ((forms of causation))...One could extend the foregoing series with ''each of the others''.





* One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:

** ''smuni'' has meaning---------------''tersmu'' interprets

** ''tatpi'' is tired------------------''seltatpi'' tires

** ''fengu'' is angry------------------''selfengu'' angers

** ''torni'' is twisting---------------''seltorni'' twists

** ''xalni'' is panicked---------------''selxalni'' terrifies

** ''zgike'' is music------------------''selzgi'' makes music



----

That's a very useful list. We shouldn't overlook the usefulness of ''zil-'', though:

;''zilsti'' comes to a stop :''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts)

;''zilxru'' reverts :''xruti'' restores

;''zilcatra'' dies :''catra'' kills

;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses

--((And))

* Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip))

* It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.)


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