[lojban-beginners] Re: lei and loi

[Isen hand <isenhand@yahoo.co.uk>]

<< I must admit that I don't quite understand what you
mean by "the same  

as using lu'o".>>


 


Going back to using the books examples. The book talks about
grouping things together:


 


lu?o ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno


lu?o ci lo gurku cu batci mi


lu?o le pano ninmu cu cinba mi


 


That I follow, lu?o groups things together ?the mass
composed of 3 men? or ?the mass composed of 3 dogs? or the "mass composed of 10
women".


 


Then the book goes on to say that ?lu?o le" and "lu?o lo" are
useful concepts even without numbers, and there are shorter ways of saying each
when no number comes between them: "lei" and "loi" respectivly


 


That seams to imply to me that you use lie and loi when you
have a mass of an unspecified number (?when no number comes between them?). So:


 


loi nanmu cu
bevri le pipno


 


fits in with that ?the mass of an unspecified number of men?


 


However the next example doesn?t, :


 


lei pano ninmu cu
cinba mi


 


It has a number in it, but didn?t it just say that lei and
loi were a shorter way of saying ?the mass composed of? when no number comes
between? 


 


Shouldn?t it be:


 


lei ninmu cu cinba mi


 


otherwise wont 


 


lei pano ninmu cu
cinba mi


 


be the same thing as:


 


lu?o le pano ninmu cu cinba mi


 


 


With the added benefit of saving a couple of letters. Or did
I misunderstand something?



Andrew





----- Original Message ----
From: Alex Martini <alexjm@umich.edu>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Sent: Friday, 14 September, 2007 3:05:15 PM
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lei and loi

>>> On Thursday 13 September 2007 06:42, Isen hand wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I?m slowly working my way through ?lojban for Beginners? and
>>> I have a question about lei and loi from page 34. From what I have
>>> understood you use lei and loi for groups with out specifying the  
>>> number.
>>> That fits in with the example given of ?loi nanmu cu bevri le  
>>> pipno? but
>>> then the next example ?lei pano ninmu cu cinba mi? has a number  
>>> in it. From
>>> my understanding it should be ?lei ninmu cu cinba mi?. Have I
>>> misunderstood?
>>
>> {lei} and {loi} mark the sumti as a mass. It can have a number in  
>> it. Suppose
>> that Bob and Jim are a surveying team, and call them {le re  
>> nanmu}. {lei re
>> nanmu cu merli le tumla} could mean that Bob worked the total  
>> station and Jim
>> walked around with a prism to the lot corners. But if le re nanmu  
>> cu merli le
>> tumla, either they're both using robots, or Bob hooked a tape at  
>> one corner,
>> pulled it to the other corner, and read it, then Jim hooked a tape  
>> and read
>> it at the other corner. So each by himself measured the land,  
>> rather than the
>> two together doing it.
>>
>> Pierre
>
> On Sep 14, 2007, at 3:10 AM, Isen hand wrote:
>
> Ok, so if you put a number in lei / loi it becomes the same
> as using lu?o?

I must admit that I don't quite understand what you mean by "the same  
as using lu'o".

{lei} is the same as {lu'o le} and {loi} as {lo'u lo}

And if you have a number, {lei # broda} is the same as {lu'o le #  
broda}. (Broda is just a pro-selbri -- it's just filling in for any  
selbri here).

But {lu'o} isn't an article (a {gadri}) so you can't say {lu'o #  
broda} as far as I know.

The example I remember best is from The Complete Lojban Language (or  
possibly Lojban for Beginners):
    {le ci gerku cu batci mi} = The three dogs bite me.
    {lei ci gerku cu batci mi} = The group of three dogs bites me.

In the first case, each dog must bite me for the sentence to be true.  
In the second, only at least one of the group of three. The  
difference is that in the first, the dogs are treated individually,  
and in the second they are treated as a group.

Hope that helps a little.

mu'o mi'e .aleks.









		
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