[lojban-beginners] Re: confusing gismus

[mungojelly@ixkey.info]

Quoting Vid Sintef <picos.picos@gmail.com>:

> mi'e vid

coi doi vid.


> Some gismus are confusing to me.

Are you really confused?  Or do you just wish they weren't so similar  
to each other? ;)  Speaking as someone who came to Lojban after the  
gismu list was established, I find that it's redundant in places &  
thin in others, but I'm sure that's more or less unavoidable anyway,  
and on the whole it seems to work alright.


> dicra (x1 (event) interrupts/stops/halts/[disrupts] x2
> (object/event/process) due to quality x3)
> zunti (x1 (evt./state) interferes with/hinders/disrupts x2
> (evt./state/process) due to quality x3 (ka))
>
> le nu le mamta cu sanga cu dicra le nu le bersa cu tadni kei le ka cladu
> le nu le mamta cu sanga cu zunti le nu le bersa cu tadni kei le ka cladu


I would say that in the case of "dicra" the studying has been halted  
by the singing, but in the case of "zunti" the singing is interfering  
with the studying, but not necessarily stopping it.


> spaji (x1 (event/action abstract) surprises/startles/is unexpected
> [and generally sudden] to x2)
> jenca (x1 (event) shocks/stuns x2)
>
> le nu le mlatu cu morsi binxo cu spaji le nixli
> le nu le mlatu cu morsi binxo cu jenca le nixli


Here I would say the difference is that "spaji" is about the  
suddenness of the event, or more precisely the reaction of surprise to  
the event (perhaps you could suddenly react to something which had  
been sneaking up on you gradually).  A surprising event might often  
cause shock, but also could cause a different reaction, like an  
immediate violent response.


> sumne (x1 (experiencer) smells/scents (transitive verb) x2; x2
> smells/has odor/scent to observer x1)
> panci (x1 is an odor/fragrance/scent/smell emitted by x2 and detected
> by observer/sensor x3)
>
> le xrula cu pluka se sumne le mamta
> le xrula cu pluka se panci fi le mamta


Hmm, I don't think I've ever considered this pair before.  I suppose  
the difference must have to do with the extra place of "panci".  The  
relationship of "sumne" is a direct relationship between a smeller and  
something they're smelling, whereas with "panci" we have a  
relationship between the thing which is emitting the scent, the scent  
itself which is wafting, and the smeller which it finally reaches.

My sense of the distinction being made here is between something which  
has a scent in the sense that you can pick it up and put it right to  
your nose and smell it-- an apple-- vs something which is emitting a  
scent which can be picked up from far away-- a baking apple pie.  It's  
not a distinction English makes, but it seems like a useful one to me.  
:)


> cecla (x1 launches/fires/shoots projectile/missile x2, propelled by x3
> [propellant/propulsion])
> danti (x1 is a ballistic projectile [e.g. bullet/missile] for firing
> by [gun/propelling launcher] x2)
>
> le se cecla be ti cu barda
> le danti be ti cu barda


Hmm, after a moment of thought I realized there's a substantial  
difference here: In the relationship of "cecla" the launching is  
actually happening!  That is, a bullet in a box is only a "danti"  
until it's fired out of a gun and becomes also a "se cecla"!


> mluni (x1 is a satellite/moon orbiting x2 with characteristics x3,
> orbital parameters x4)
> lunra (x1 is Earth's moon (default); x1 is a major natural
> satellite/moon of planet x2)


A "mluni" includes just about anything that orbits a planet, including  
I believe man-made satellites and so forth.  A "lunra" is only a very  
substantial satellite, such as our moon.


> molki (x1 is a mill/foundry/industrial plant/[assembly line]
> performing process x2)
> fanri (x1 is a factory/foundry/industrial plant/mill producing x2 from
> materials x3)


I'm not sure about this one, but it seems like a "molki" doesn't  
necessarily produce a tangible product?


> zalvi (x1 [individual or mass of hard surfaces]
> grinds/pulverizes/crushes x2 into powder x3)
> marxa (x1 [force] mashes/crushes/squashes/smashes x2 into
> pulp/mash/crumbs/deformed mass x3)


These are just slightly different in method, intent & result.  To  
"zalvi" you need something hard which can be crushed into dust.  For  
"marxa" you can take anything and squish it into any deformed shape.


> skapi (x1 is a pelt/skin/hide/leather from x2)
> pilka (x1 is a crust/rind/peel/skin/hide/outer cover of x2)


Here "skapi" is a subset of "pilka", I would say.  There's just a  
special word for the "pilka" of an animal.


I think with words like "skapi" and "lunra" you must allow that Lojban  
is not intended to avoid having a *human* bias. ;)


mu'o mi'e doi bret.