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[lojban-beginners] Re: sel- vs se

Yes, that's it. The reason why I'm asking is that I'm learning Lojban vocabulary using flash cards, and I'm deciding on how to deal with gismu sumti. 

I thought of three ways. A card could look like this:
  FRONT:
  klama
  a: goer
  e: destination
  i: [...]
  o: route
  u: vehicle
  BACK:
  origin of going

Or this:
  FRONT:
  te klama
  BACK:
  origin of going

Or this:
  FRONT:
  terkla
  BACK:
  origin of going
I decided to eliminate the first one because it has more clutter than is necessary to answer the question and recall the answer. So I was choosing between the second and third one. The third one has an added consequence of often quizzing a gismu's rafsi too, which may be positive or negative, depending on if I want to memorize rafsi separately or simultaneously.
So the tipping point for me would be which—"terkla" or "te klama"—is used more, or if there is a difference between the two phrases' usages. I still don't know which I'm going to use. 

mu'omi'e symuyn

On 22 November 2009, at 7:39 PM, Steven Lytle wrote:


The question wasn't about lujvo vs. tanru.
It was about the difference between SE GISMU and lujvo based on SE GISMU (SELGIhU?). I think they're identical in meaning, and I prefer SE GISMU because they're just GISMU with places. I suppose it's possible to have a lujvo that looks like SELGIhU but isn't by leaving out parts of the underlying tanru, but I would consider that very bad form. It's also possible that the SELGIhU, being a lujvo, has a specific meaning not identical to the SE GISMU it seems to be based on, but again, I would consider that very bad form. 
It's possible that what I consider bad form is irrelevant, too.
stevo
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote: Yes. lujvo have explicit definitions. They have exactly the same precision as a gismu does. Tanru, however, are vague and can mean many things based on context.
So for instance, {retsku} means "x1 asks/puts question x2 (sedu'u/ text/lu'e concept) of/to x3 via expressive medium x4 about subject x5".
While, on the other hand, {preti cusku} is more vague, like "question type of sayer".
Another difference is that sometimes when constructing lujvo, people will leave out bits for the sake of brevity. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. Maybe someone else can chime in with a good example where the {sel} bit is chopped out to make it shorter. 


On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote:
Oops, I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant "selbo'e" and "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo using "sel", and the other being the cmavo followed by the gismu. Is there any difference in usage between using the lujvo and using the cmavo +gismu? 


On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote:


On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote:
Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo
and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi"
and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selklani"? One forms
phrases—don't know if you'd call them "tanru"—and the other forms words 
—which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified"
meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does
that affect words like selcti?
Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If "seltci" 
(or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a
difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes something traded", i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean that, and could also 
mean "flag that is traded".
On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote: Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference between pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no difference at all, right? They're semantically equivalent, and in this case they even have the same amount of syllables.
So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, or does one not have to care at all about it?
Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. The canonical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score among the possible rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring algorithm (CLL 4:12). 

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan