Re: [lojban-beginners] Tanru-internal connectives, place structure, non-sense

[selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com>]

On 10.11.2013 17:38, iesk wrote:
> la selpa'i ku cusku di'e
> > I always treated it like this: When one predicate has more places 
> > than
> > the other, the {je} connection only affects those places that 
> > "overlap".
> > In this example, blanu1 and zdani1 are connected, but zdani2 is not,
> > because there is no blanu2. Without this, the example would indeed be
> > questionable, but tanru internal connectives would then be even more
> > useless, so I don't recommend this interpretation.
>
> I understand. You thus save {ti blanu je zdani} from being useless 
> non-
> sense.

That's right.

> (Even then, {ti blanu je zdani} instead of then-equivalent {ti
> blanu gi'e zdani} seems like bad style to me. I think it is a bit of 
> a
> pity that it is a CLL example sentence.)

Could be. It's not easy to find good examples of {broda je brode}. 
You'd need something where both predicates have the same valency and 
whose places are compatible. The examples tend to be very boring:

   (1) ti blanu je xunre
       "This is blue and red."

There aren't many unary predicates, and most of them are colors. For 
higher arity, the two predicates usually come from the same semantic 
family, e.g.:

   (2) mi troci je snada lo ka klama
       "I tried and succeeded to go."

(even the x3 matches)

Such perfect alignment is rare in Lojban. The place structures just 
aren't uniform enough, and often a random "under conditions" or "by 
standard" place messes up the symmetry.

> I suppose you also accept {blanu je zdani ti}, by the same reasoning?

Actually, I don't. Here, {ti} fills the x2 of both {blanu} and {zdani}, 
and since blanu2 doesn't exist, it's a questionable sentence. I see your 
point, however.

By the way, I see the same problems with {gi'e} + {vau} connections, 
because the places after the "zipper" {vau} also need to match, just 
like with a {je} connection. For example:

   (3) mi viska gi'e klama vau lo tricu
       "I see and-go-to the tree [from some place which is also a 
condition for my visual perception]"

So this problem crops up with bridi-tail connection as well.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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