Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra

[".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>]

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:25:52AM -0400, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:30 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 28 October 2010 10:34, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> I would not be surprised if hypothetical future native speakers of lojban would find this shortcut very convenient, though...
> >>
> >> Is not shortcut, is wrong.
> >> Not think is good.
> >>
> >>>_>
> >>
> >> It's not a shortcut, it's just wrong. It means "I'm capable of a
> >> runner." and that's always what it will mean. Nobody that -actually-
> >> speaks Lojban would agree with your sentiments. lo bajra will always
> >> be a runner, and lo nu bajra will always be an event of being a runner
> >> (or "running"), and the day that it stops working like that is the day
> >> that I give up on Lojban forever. It would introduce vast amounts of
> >> ambiguity to have implicit abstractors, and has always been rejected.
> >
> > How exactly is "a runner" different from "an event of being a runner"?
> > If X is a runner, doesn't X represent an event of being a runner?
> >
> 
>   No.  X is a person (or animal, or whatever).  An "event of running"
> is an action.  X can perform the action of running ("da zukte lo nu
> [da] bajra") or can cause it ("da gasnu lo nu lo xirma cu bajra"), but
> he can't BE it.
>               --gejyspa
> 

I think "Dreshcher and the toaster" may be worth understanding:

  http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html#id3141308

  Drescher and the toaster

  A disciple of another sect once came to Drescher as he was eating
  his morning meal.

  "I would like to give you this personality test", said the outsider,
  "because I want you to be happy."

  Drescher took the paper that was offered him and put it into the
  toaster, saying: "I wish the toaster to be happy, too."

"I would like to give you this personality test because taking it
will result in you being happy." is one fix for one possible
interpretation of this koan.  I know there are others!  I do think
his koan demonstrates the problem domain.

Is happiness a property of the test?
Is toaster happiness the same as tester happiness?

-Alan
-- 
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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