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Re: [lojban-beginners] mi kakne lo bajra
Thank you Adam, this is a wonderful description.
-Alan
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:00:59AM -0500, Adam Lopresto wrote:
> To me it sounds like you don't quite understand. It isn't that kakne2
> *forces* an event, it's that nothing else makes any sense in that
> place. In the same way, only things with legs can fit into bajra1. So
> if you assert *{mi kakne lo bajra} or {lo se kakne cu bajra}, you're
> talking about something that can fill kakne2 and bajra1 at the same
> time, that is, something that is an event someone is capable of, that
> *also* runs on legs on some surface. Since events or states don't have
> legs, you've ended up with semantic nonsense, though it's fine
> grammatically.
>
> It's not that we add {nu} into {lo bajra} to turn {lo bajra} into an
> event. Instead, build it from the inside out. {bajra} is a selbri
> meaning "x1 runs on surface x2 with limbs x3 and gait x4". {nu ...
> kei} wraps an entire bridi and converts it into a selbri, so {nu
> [zo'e] bajra [zo'e] [zo'e] [zo'e] [kei]} is a selbri meaning "x1 is an
> event of someone running on some surface with some gait". Then we
> convert that to a sumti by surrounding it with {lo ... ku}, to create
> a sumti that fills the x1 of that, so "some event or events of someone
> running on some surface with some gait". And that event (and not a
> runner) is the sort of thing that can fill kakne2.
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies and explanations! The lo drata / lo nu drata
> > comparison helps a great deal.
> >
> > But I don't yet fully comprehend "X2 IS an event or state, regardless
> > of what it might be. If x2 starts with "lo nu", "lo za'i", etc. then
> > it's essentially superfluous
> > (other than to clarify if it's an event or a state). But if it
> > doesn't such as "lo bajra", then it is an event or a state AS WELL AS
> > being a runner."
> >
> > ...Part of me feels like, at least when we look at the English
> > glosses, that the "lo drata/ lo nu drata" example has a readily
> > apparent semantic difference. To help me understand the generality of
> > this contrast, what precisely would be semantically different in the
> > original two cases. It seems to me that the two should be equivalent:
> >
> > Lojban: { mi kakne lo bajra }
> > Parse: (x1: I) am capable of (x2 [FORCE-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner")
> > Gloss: "I'm capable of a running event"
> > English: (I can run)
> >
> > Lojban: { mi kakne lo nu bajra }
> > Parse: (x1 I) am capable of (x2 [EXPLICIT-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner")
> > Gloss: "I'm capable of the event of (me?*) running"
> > English: (I can run)
> >
> > ki'e .i co'o mi'e korbi
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:43, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I also might not have been very clear what the difference of my a)
> >> and b) above were. So let me give it some context:
> >>
> >> a) mi bajra .i mi kakne lo drata (I am capable of a event which is different)
> >>
> >> b) mi bajra .i mi kakne lo nu drata. (I am capable of the event of
> >> me being different)
> >>
> >> a) I am running. I can do something else (besides running).
> >> b) I am running. I can (also) be something other (than what I am,
> >> presumably, but not necessarily referring to runningness).
> >>
> >> --gejyspa
> >
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> >
>
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--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
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