Re: [lojban-beginners] mi kakne lo bajra

[Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>]

To me it sounds like you don't quite understand. It isn't that kakne2
*forces* an event, it's that nothing else makes any sense in that
place. In the same way, only things with legs can fit into bajra1. So
if you assert *{mi kakne lo bajra} or {lo se kakne cu bajra}, you're
talking about something that can fill kakne2 and bajra1 at the same
time, that is, something that is an event someone is capable of, that
*also* runs on legs on some surface. Since events or states don't have
legs, you've ended up with semantic nonsense, though it's fine
grammatically.

It's not that we add {nu} into {lo bajra} to turn {lo bajra} into an
event. Instead, build it from the inside out. {bajra} is a selbri
meaning "x1 runs on surface x2 with limbs x3 and gait x4". {nu ...
kei} wraps an entire bridi and converts it into a selbri, so {nu
[zo'e] bajra [zo'e] [zo'e] [zo'e] [kei]} is a selbri meaning "x1 is an
event of someone running on some surface with some gait". Then we
convert that to a sumti by surrounding it with {lo ... ku}, to create
a sumti that fills the x1 of that, so "some event or events of someone
running on some surface with some gait". And that event (and not a
runner) is the sort of thing that can fill kakne2.

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies and explanations! The lo drata / lo nu drata
> comparison helps a great deal.
>
> But I don't yet fully comprehend "X2 IS an event or state, regardless
> of what it might be.  If x2 starts with "lo nu", "lo za'i", etc. then
> it's essentially superfluous
> (other than to clarify if it's an event or a state).  But if it
> doesn't such as "lo bajra", then it is an event or a state AS WELL AS
> being a runner."
>
> ...Part of me feels like, at least when we look at the English
> glosses, that the "lo drata/ lo nu drata" example has a readily
> apparent semantic difference. To help me understand the generality of
> this contrast, what precisely would be semantically different in the
> original two cases. It seems to me that the two should be equivalent:
>
> Lojban: { mi kakne lo bajra }
> Parse: (x1: I) am capable of (x2 [FORCE-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner")
> Gloss: "I'm capable of a running event"
> English: (I can run)
>
> Lojban: { mi kakne lo nu bajra }
> Parse: (x1 I) am capable of (x2 [EXPLICIT-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner")
> Gloss: "I'm capable of the event of (me?*) running"
> English: (I can run)
>
> ki'e .i co'o mi'e korbi
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:43, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  I also might not have been very clear what the difference of my a)
>> and b) above were.   So let me give it some context:
>>
>> a)  mi bajra .i mi kakne lo drata (I am capable of a event which is different)
>>
>> b)  mi bajra .i mi kakne lo nu drata.  (I am capable of the event of
>> me being different)
>>
>>  a) I am running.  I can do something else (besides running).
>>  b) I am running.  I can (also) be something other (than what I am,
>> presumably, but not necessarily referring to runningness).
>>
>>           --gejyspa
>
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