Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: ci lo gerku vs lo ci gerku

[Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>]

I think maybe the nature of the brivla itself is what adds those context based assumptions.  If I hear {lo gerku} I'm going to make some basic assumptions based on the fact that we're talking about {lo gerku}.  I'm going to assume that there is a telgandi, a skari, and other things typical of a gerku.  I guess likewise I will assume that it's not 40 feet tall, 12-legged, or {no}.

I think I get it now xorxes.  {lo} has no quantifiers and any assumptions about whether we are talking about many, some, or none of <these things> may or maynot be determinable from the se gadri and consequently have NOTHING to do with {lo}.  Additionally, it may be pointless or purposeless to even think about the quantities.  It's probably only the english part of my brain that's demanding to know if we're talking about {su'o}, {so'i}l, or {no}.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:35 AM, ranoritc <ranorith@gmail.com> wrote:

"Is "lo gerku cu blabi" a
fine generalization of "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" because "lo" has no
default color? Is "lo gerku" a fine generalization of "lo fetsi gerku"
because "lo" has no  hidden gender? What about "lo fetsi najenai nakni
gerku"?"

Yes, yes, yes. If I say "the purple dog is white" is true then
necessarily the sentence "the dog is white" is true (for some dog).
Similarly in lojban, if "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" then "lo gerku cu
blabi". seltaa modify tertau but don't change them completely - lo
broda brode cu brode. However, quantifiers can. If "lo no gerku cu
batci mi" this in no way implies "lo gerku cu batci mi". In fact, they
are contradictory. In the three examples I gave above, the first "lo
no gerku cu blabi" was meant to show how a quantifier could contradict
the generalisation, the second to show how a quantifier could be
independent from (not imply or be implied by) the generalisation, and
the third was a bit of a joke, so feel free to ignore that.

Suffice to say, quantifiers are not seltau, they act differently to
seltau, and that should in my opinion be part of the written law of
lojban, not just "oh but we know from context when someone says 'lo
gerku' they mean 'lo su'o gerku' but maybe they don't"

On May 6, 1:09 am, Jorge Llambías <jjllamb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:41 AM, ranoritc <ranor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ionai la xorlo na'e ciste fi lo selklani po zo lo i ni'i la'edi'u lu
> > lo gerku cu blabi li'u selsmuni lu lo no gerku cu blabi li'u xu i si'a
> > selsmuni lu lo piso'a gerku cu blabi li'u xu i si'a selsmuni lu lo
> > mo'a gerku cu blabi li'u zo'o i selbebna .i
>
> > Ranorith
>
> > Yuck, I really hate how xorlo specifies that lo "has no default
> > quantifiers". Does that mean if I say "lo gerku cu blabi" this is a
> > fine generalisation of "lo no gerku cu blabi"? What about "lo piso'a
> > gerku cu blabi"? Or perhaps "lo mo'a gerku cu blabi"? So silly.
>
> Indeed that's silly, but I don' t follow your reasoning. I say that
> "lo" has nothing to do with quantifiers, and you ask whether "lo" can
> have some more or less absurd hidden quantifiers? Just forget about
> any connection between "lo" and quantifiers. Is "lo gerku cu blabi" a
> fine generalization of "lo zirpu gerku cu blabi" because "lo" has no
> default color? Is "lo gerku" a fine generalization of "lo fetsi gerku"
> because "lo" has no  hidden gender? What about "lo fetsi najenai nakni
> gerku"? Or does "lo" have a default "fetsi ja nakni" gender? "lo" has
> nothing to do with color, it has nothing to do with gender, and it has
> nothing to do with number. That doesn't mean you can assume there are
> hidden crazy colors, genders or numbers when you use "lo".
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes

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