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Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati
I have no idea about L4B, but the CLL doesn't introduce terminators
(except {cu}) until chapter 5 as far as I can tell; where are you
seeing them?
-Robin
On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 08:04:05AM -0400, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> One thing I'm curious about. I never went through the L4B, but is
> what you are saying here is that the concept of terminators isn't
> even _introduced_ in L4B until much later? If so, I think that
> is just wrong. I learned lojban by simply reading the CLL from
> beginning to end (and asking lots of questions, while trying to
> dodge the curmudgeons, in #lojban) That introduced terminators
> right at the very beginnning, and at every step, explaining that
> most times they could be elided, and how. So yes, I always
> thought of the concept of e.g. a LE sumti being LE broda KU, but
> with KU usually elidable.
>
> --gejyspa
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:37 AM, Robin Lee Powell
> <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > I'm still waiting for someone to come out and say "I was taught that
> > way, it took about that long, and now I can hold a conversation in
> > Lojban".
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 10:52:39PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
> >> So one argument I keep hearing for {cu} first and {ku} later is
> >> that it's much faster to learn "street lojban" and then learn the
> >> technicalities of elision and whatnot. But from what lindar was
> >> saying, it sounds like "the long/not-street" way of teaching (ku
> >> then cu) takes about 30-90 minutes. "It gets newbies speaking in
> >> full sentences faster" seems like a moot point when the
> >> alternative (and better IMO) way only takes about an hour to
> >> learn.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > My two cents to all of this:
> >> > I'm newish but relatively comfortable. I came into the community after
> >> > going through LFB (I can't guarantee I was done when I first came, but I was
> >> > close). I worked some of the exercises in the chapters (maybe up to chapter
> >> > 7 or so) but eventually I found myself trying to hack sentences together in
> >> > a nonlinear fashion, and so I used it as a reference basically, until I felt
> >> > comfortable enough and had sufficiently technical questions that I thought I
> >> > should join the IRC and mailing lists.
> >> >
> >> > So I learned {cu} first, terminators second. I didn't actually like this in
> >> > the end (obviously at the time I didn't know any better). I think putting
> >> > off terminators made them seem kinda intimidating. I got them, but they were
> >> > one of the things that gave me more hesitation. On the other hand, I think
> >> > that filling in every elidable terminator, and even more so using
> >> > terminators AND {cu}, in sample sentences directed at beginners, is a
> >> > horrible idea, much worse than starting with {cu}*. The sentences get
> >> > horribly complicated, and a lot of the elidable terminators are very very
> >> > rarely actually useful. I know a circumstance when {vau} is useful having to
> >> > do with a certain construction involving GIhA but it's a pretty hard
> >> > circumstance to run into, for example. And in this example, to me, that
> >> > means that it is silly to teach {vau} to a newbie. If there were even
> >> > remotely common circumstances when you needed it, it would be great to teach
> >> > it, but with {vau} you have to go to quite a bit of effort to construct a
> >> > relevant example, let alone incorporate a relevant example into a discussion
> >> > of an actual topic.
> >> >
> >> > So start with {ku}. When you get to abstractors, teach {kei}. When you get
> >> > to {be}, teach {be'o}. When you get to {poi}/{noi}, teach {ku'o}. Around the
> >> > time when you start needing two terminators (probably around the time that
> >> > you get to abstractors), mention that there's a faster way that is usually
> >> > used, and maybe teach it at that time. Or maybe wait until you run into
> >> > three terminators (maybe around the time you hit {be} and then attempt to
> >> > synthesize knowledge by putting sumti with internal sumti inside
> >> > abstractors). But in short, don't teach {cu} first, imo. It can do too many
> >> > things to be taught that early on, and so a person that starts with it will
> >> > learn the ways that it fails in a much more hackish way, I think; by
> >> > contrast, {ku}, {kei}, etc. all do pretty much one thing, and so if they are
> >> > the foundation and {cu} is the icing, there won't tend to be confusion so
> >> > much as inefficiency. (And people have already shown examples of {cu}
> >> > causing inefficiency).
> >> >
> >> > This all assumes the "learning Lojban to learn it, not to use it ASAP"
> >> > hypothesis stated above, of course, which I think is probably pretty good
> >> > here. This is also all based on conjecture, not data.
> >> >
> >> > *I think that sentence is ungrammatical but I don't know how to fix it,
> >> > sorry.
> >> >
> >> > mu'oi mi'e latros.
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> de'i li 06 pi'e 07 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lindar .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> >> >> > ... and then you start seeing confused newbies that don't actually know
> >> >> how
> >> >> > to terminate that say things like {mi cu dunda zo'e zo'e} (I have
> >> >> actually
> >> >> > seen stuff like this).
> >> >> .skamyxatra
> >> >>
> >> >> "{mi cu dunda}" is actually perfectly grammatically correct. (It's
> >> >> unnecessarily verbose and arguably bad style, but if that's your sole
> >> >> objection
> >> >> to it, you might want to look in the mirror.) "{cu}" means "the {bridi}'s
> >> >> main
> >> >> {selbri} starts here," which implies the termination of anything before
> >> >> it,
> >> >> rather than termination being the primary concept and the main {selbri}
> >> >> aspect
> >> >> secondary. The only (non-obvious) grammatical restriction on "{cu}" is
> >> >> that it
> >> >> must be preceded by at least one term in the sentence, where a "term" can
> >> >> be a
> >> >> {sumti} (including descriptor {sumti} and pro-{sumti}), a termset, a
> >> >> {sumti}
> >> >> tagged with a {sumti tcita}, a bare BAI KU, a NA KU, or even a FA KU.
> >> >>
> >> >> mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> lo paroi cumki cu rere'u cumki
> >> >>
> >> >> --
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> >> >>
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> >
> > --
> > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
> > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
> >
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> >
>
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--
http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
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