Re: [lojban] {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}?

[John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>]

--- opi_lauma <opi_lauma@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello!
> 
> I have new question. Is it true that {X1 selbri
> X2} = {X2 se selbri
> X1}? For example is {la tam. tavla la meris.}
> equivalent to {la meris.
> se tavla la tam.} ?

Well, it depends. In this case it is true --
except for some pragmatic differences: putting
Mary first may change the slant a bit.  But in
other cases it is not; in general it holds only
if the sumti involved have fixed meanings in
context or more exactly, if the meanings do not
change by changing positions.  So, for example,
{ro da tavla de} is NOT the same as {de se tavla
ro da} because the scopes of the quantifiers
change, making different referents (the first
says that everybody talks to somebody or other,
the second that there is some one person to whom
everybody talks.) If we fix the scopes of the
quantifiers by prenexing,  the problem
disappears: {ro da de zo'u da tavla de} is the
same as {ro da de zo'u de se tavla da}.  To
confuse matters further, not every quantifier
works this way (da tavla de} is the same as {de
se tavla da} ofr, although the scopes change, the
meanings remain the same.  
> The reason of my doubt is following. I found
> that {la tam. tavla la
> meris.} should be translated as "Tom talks to
> Mary", and {la meris. se
> tavla la tam.} should be translated as "Mary
> listens to Tom." But it
> seams to me that these two English translations
> have different
> meaning. Really, if Tom talk to Mary it does
> not necessarily mean that
> Mary listen to Tom. Does it mens that
> corresponding initial lojban
> sentences also have different meaning, or may
> be English translations
> just not fully represent initial meaning of
> lojban sentences?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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