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Poesy (WAS Re: Online learning)


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> >I think that once
> >programs like the one I propose are setup and well established, then l=
ojban
> >will lose its poor reputation for being a scientific language with no =
beauty.
> >I know --More--
> >that's not true, but a lot of people that I try to explain the languag=
e to
> >hastily make that judgement.  I hope it changes.
>
> The primary answer to this, I think, is that for some reason, people se=
em
> compelled to translate poetry rather than prose into Lojban.  Clearly p=
eople
> see some kind of beauty in a language that they first look at the poesy=
 of.
> Unfortunately, translating peotry is probably harder than writing it, a=
nd
> not all that many attempts seem as commendable in the results as the ef=
forts
> that were put forth to create them.
>
>
.iesai   Poetry is awkward to translate into any language - I've written
poems in English and in Turkish, and while my Turkish is still not
wonderful, a poem I've written in Turkish still sounds better than one
I've translated into Turkish from English or vice versa (I'm aided by
the fact that writing bad poetry is a very popular occupation here!).
Nevertheless, I think you can produce aesthetically pleasing Lojban if
you don't stick too closely to the original text - a rendering more than
a translation, perhaps.

Having said that, the following is not exactly poetry - it's a very
loose translation/modification of a prayer/meditation, which in turn was
my own modification of something adapted from the Kaulajnana Nirnaya (a
medieval Tantra).  Probably full of grammar mistakes, but I think it
sounds kind of nice, if somewhat repetitive (as meditations are).  In
fact, lines 1, 3, and 5, and both lines of the penultimate verse, are
designed to be repeated ad lib.


.i .e=92o doi solri ko kurji ro=92i
.i .e=92o le mi cinmo cu  prami gi=92e gleki
.i .e=92o doi lunri ko kurji ro=92e
.i .e=92o le mi pensi cu klina gi=92e sarxe
.i .e=92o doi fagri ko kurji ro=92o
.i .e=92o le mi xadni cu kanro gi=92e tsali

.i la lunri cu kurji le mi pensi
.i le mi pensi cu klina gi=92e sarxe
.i la solri cu kurji le mi cinmo
.i le mi cinmo cu prami gi=92e gleki
.i la fagri cu kurji le mi xadni
.i le mi xadni cu kanro gi=92e tsali

.i mi du le gusni po=92e le mi cevni
.i .e=92o le mi cevni cu stali gi=92e gidva

.i .e=92o lei jmive cu panpi gi=92e zifre gi=92e gleki


A few points ....

1.  It's always a problem finding a comprise between metricality and
grammaticality.  Apart from the last line, it should all fit roughly
into tetrameter or trimeter (second verse), but sometimes you have to
"scrunch" some of the cmavo.  Fine in English, but I'm not sure if
Lojban is supposed to be syllable-timed or stress-timed.  If the atter
is the case, this obviously wouldn't work.

2.  "cinmo" was an attempt to translate the metaphorical use of
"heart".  I was really more after something like "soul" as it (or rather
its equivalent, which I've forgotten) is used in Russian or Early Modern
English, rather than "pruxi", which implies "ghostly/ethereal".

3.  "klina" and "sarxe" were attempts at "lucid" and "calm" (as mental
states), which is stretching things somewhat.

4. I'm not sure exactly what the difference between "pe'u" and "e'o" is,
except that I have never seen "pe'u" outside an imperative selbri.  I
stuck with "e'o" as it seems more flexible and general, and is also used
in lojbab's translation of the Lord's Prayer (the first draft used
"pe'u" in imperative selbri and "e'o" otherwise).

co'o mi'e robin.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>>I think that once
>programs like the one I propose are setup and well established, then loj=
ban
>will lose its poor reputation for being a scientific language with no be=
auty.
>I know --More--
>that's not true, but a lot of people that I try to explain the language =
to
>hastily make that judgement.&nbsp; I hope it changes.

The primary answer to this, I think, is that for some reason, people seem
compelled to translate poetry rather than prose into Lojban.&nbsp; Clearl=
y people
see some kind of beauty in a language that they first look at the poesy o=
f.
Unfortunately, translating peotry is probably harder than writing it, and
not all that many attempts seem as commendable in the results as the effo=
rts
that were put forth to create them.

</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
.iesai&nbsp;&nbsp; Poetry is awkward to translate into any language - I'v=
e
written poems in English and in Turkish, and while my Turkish is still
not wonderful, a poem I've written in Turkish still sounds better than
one I've translated into Turkish from English or vice versa (I'm aided
by the fact that writing bad poetry is a very popular occupation here!).&=
nbsp;
Nevertheless, I think you can produce aesthetically pleasing Lojban if
you don't stick too closely to the original text - a rendering more than
a translation, perhaps.
<P>Having said that, the following is not exactly poetry - it's a very
loose translation/modification of a prayer/meditation, which in turn was
my own modification of something adapted from the Kaulajnana Nirnaya (a
medieval Tantra).&nbsp; Probably full of grammar mistakes, but I think
it sounds kind of nice, if somewhat repetitive (as meditations are).&nbsp=
;
In fact, lines 1, 3, and 5, and both lines of the penultimate verse, are
designed to be repeated ad lib.
<BR>&nbsp;
<P>.i .e=92o doi solri ko kurji ro=92i
<BR>.i .e=92o le mi cinmo cu&nbsp; prami gi=92e gleki
<BR>.i .e=92o doi lunri ko kurji ro=92e
<BR>.i .e=92o le mi pensi cu klina gi=92e sarxe
<BR>.i .e=92o doi fagri ko kurji ro=92o
<BR>.i .e=92o le mi xadni cu kanro gi=92e tsali
<P>.i la lunri cu kurji le mi pensi
<BR>.i le mi pensi cu klina gi=92e sarxe
<BR>.i la solri cu kurji le mi cinmo
<BR>.i le mi cinmo cu prami gi=92e gleki
<BR>.i la fagri cu kurji le mi xadni
<BR>.i le mi xadni cu kanro gi=92e tsali
<P>.i mi du le gusni po=92e le mi cevni
<BR>.i .e=92o le mi cevni cu stali gi=92e gidva
<P>.i .e=92o lei jmive cu panpi gi=92e zifre gi=92e gleki
<BR>&nbsp;
<P>A few points ....
<P>1.&nbsp; It's always a problem finding a comprise between metricality
and grammaticality.&nbsp; Apart from the last line, it should all fit rou=
ghly
into tetrameter or trimeter (second verse), but sometimes you have to "sc=
runch"
some of the cmavo.&nbsp; Fine in English, but I'm not sure if Lojban is
supposed to be syllable-timed or stress-timed.&nbsp; If the atter is the
case, this obviously wouldn't work.
<P>2.&nbsp; "cinmo" was an attempt to translate the metaphorical use of
"heart".&nbsp; I was really more after something like "soul" as it (or
rather its equivalent, which I've forgotten) is used in Russian or Early
Modern English, rather than "pruxi", which implies "ghostly/ethereal".
<P>3.&nbsp; "klina" and "sarxe" were attempts at "lucid" and "calm" (as
mental states), which is stretching things somewhat.
<P>4. I'm not sure exactly what the difference between "pe'u" and "e'o"
is, except that I have never seen "pe'u" outside an imperative selbri.&nb=
sp;
I stuck with "e'o" as it seems more flexible and general, and is also use=
d
in lojbab's translation of the Lord's Prayer (the first draft used "pe'u"
in imperative selbri and "e'o" otherwise).
<P>co'o mi'e robin.</HTML>

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