Re: [lojban] Re: camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 4:13 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>
> In that case, I think that the initial "i" or "u" should be treated like a
> consonant, as far as how many can begin a syllable goes. So CCi and CCu
> should be permitted, but not CCCi or CCCu, since a syllable can't begin with
> four consonants. I would, though, allow 'i or 'u onset.

I don't consider the "three consonant limit" a rule in itself, but
just a consequence of the way the consonants sort themselves out in
general onsets:

  (s|c|z|j| ) (p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n| ) (l|r| )

There just happen to be three groups of consonants, and since we can
only have at most one from each group, always keeping the order, the
maximum cluster ends up being of three consonants. The affricates
belong to a different paradigm, and i/u also belong to a different
paradigm.

If we want to incorporate i/u to the general scheme, one possibility
would be to add (i|u| ) as a fourth group:

 (s|c|z|j| ) (p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n| ) (l|r| ) (i|u| )

in which case CCCi CCCu would be possible. Another possibility would
be to add i/u to the l/r group:

 (s|c|z|j| ) (p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n| ) (l|r|i|u| )

in which case only up to CCi or CCu are possible, but we exclude ri-
li- ru- lu- as possible onsets.

Currently, my preference is to just have the "palatalized" consonants:

   (s|c|z|j|p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n|l|r| ) i

and the "labialized" consonants:

   (s|c|z|j|p|t|k|b|d|g|f|x|m|n|l|r| ) u

along with the "affricates":

   (t|d)(s|c|z|j)

as special onsets, almost as if they were single consonants that can't
combine with anything else in an onset.

>> I would limit the consonantal syllables to the 64 syllables formed by
>> a consonant plus l,m,n,r. No codas and no heavier onsets. That's all
>> that is needed for type-3 fu'ivla, and type-3 fu'ivla are the only
>> ones where I would use consonantal syllables. And exclusively for the
>> hyphen syllable, so I would never actually use vocalic "m" in fu'ivla.
>
> I think that whether a syllable is valid in a fu'ivla is independent of
> whether it's a type-3 or type-4 fu'ivla. Changing the hyphen-letter to
> another syllabic consonant should not affect its validity, unless an invalid
> consonant cluster results. Thus "visrda" is valid, so
> is "visnda"; "lerldjamo" is valid, so is "lermdjamo".

That's what camxes does now, but my personal preference is to restrict
consonantal syllables to the type-3 hyphen. (Eventually, this -R-
hyphen can be replaced by -yR- with no ambiguity arising and voilà! no
more consonantal syllables in fu'ivla. Another advantage of -yR- is
that the -l- variety of the hyphen is no longer ever needed.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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