This was brought up before, but I don't know that it was closed "closed" exactly. As I said earlier today, though, using the autonyms directly creates any number of problems, one of which could even be the claim that doing so makes these words more culturally biased than the international standard.I mean, how do we do this with autonyms? You have "portugala," presumably for Portuguese, but far closer to the autonym would be "portugese" or "portugesa." What about groups that don't have names for their languages? What about places where the language is called two or three different things? Which do we use? Do we keep the "ki-" prefixes, along with their variants, for all of the Bantu languages? If so, then why not keep the "lingua" with "lingua latina"? What about, for example, the Athabaskan languages, where the autonym is nearly always "people's (language)," and the languages are close enough that we'd have to figure out how to distinguish 20 words which are all something like "dene" and remember which goes with which. What do we do in Mexico, where speakers of completely unrelated languages often call their language "mexicano"? Do we just have "mexkano" for all of these 20 languages?The only thing I can see that we get with the autonyms is that they are the autonyms, but we get a whole bunch of other issues; I'm just not sure it's worth it. I'm willing to be persuaded*, but no one has really argued for autonyms for any particular reason..Chris*In fact, I'd kind of LIKE to be persuaded--as a linguist who works with minority language communities, I have always been in favor of using the autonymic term when possible. But, if we really want the Lojban terms to be culturally neutral and as accessible to possible to people around the world, then using autonyms is the wrong answer, as far as I can tell.--
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 14:20, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gmail.com> wrote:
IMHO I can't see any reason to not base such words wholly on the autonym, eschewing the ISO codes, especially considering that we have, for the first time in history, the ability to easily access the autonyms of 99% of the world's ethnicities & languages. And also since that second code is merely an abbreviation of the language family, which doesn't seem like a sensible candidate for inclusion in the fu'ivla.
I've been following this thread, but haven't necessarily read every word. So if this issue has already been argued & deemed closed, I apologize. Otherwise, quick & dirty proposals for the list below (if the language name derives from the country or people, I reverted to the latter, but that's not the point I'm making):
portugala
po'olska
.arxabi
.argona
ba'anla
bamnana
kernoue
ko'orsu
dzo'onxa
mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:Alright, so, here are some revised/reconcocted fu'ivla for languages. I decided that there wasn't really a good way to go about standardizing how the two codes fits into the fu'ivla, but the main one was that, if you have a seven-letter fu'ivla, you get an extra C or V, and that seems like it should be based on the autonym (or at least the source for the ISO code), and not just a random consonant.I also did a couple of weird things, which I don't necessarily feel very strongly about, but which made things a bit easier, even though a bit of opacity was added in terms of being able to see the ISO codes. For the letter "c," when it appeared at the front of a code and as the sound /k/, I changed the "c" to "ck," which represents both the writing and the sound, plus making an easy, freebie cluster. "C"s pronounced as "ch" became "tc," although in this case, it isn't actually breaking the three-letter ISO code. When "c" occurred at the end of a code, I left is "c."fu'ivla - Language (Autonym/ISO language/ISO family)portine - Portuguese (Português/por/ine)polsine - Polish (polski/pol/ine).arba'afa - Arabic (al3arabii/ara/afa).argo'ine - Argonese (Argonés/arg/ine)bengine - Bengali (বাংলা [ˈbaŋla]/ben/ine)bamnicV - Bambara (bamanankan)ckorine - Cornish (Kernewek/cor/ine)ckosine - Corsican (corsu/cos/ine)dzositV - Dzongkha (རྫོང་ཁ/dzo/sit)Etc.How do this look to people?Chris--
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:51, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, it might not end up working; or, rather, it might have to be a more general, to say, for example, that all of the fu'ivla for languages will be of eight letters (or something), but without any reference to a specific structure...I'll poke at it and see what pops out.
2010/4/1 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, for example, if the language ISO code is
> CCV and the family code is VCV, then they go into a CCV'VCV fu'ivla, etc.,
> for each of the possible combinations.The immediate problem I see there is that the CC has high chances of
not being a valid initial, and even not a valid cluster.
If it's just not a valid initial, you can add an epenthetic vowel in
front to get VC/CV'VCV. If it's not a valid cluster, that's more of a
problem.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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