Re: [lojban] Re: {le} in xorlo

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> Jorge Llambías wrote:
>>
>> You don't need to worry about any of this in order to use the
>> language, but surely there is no harm in people discussing these
>> things?
>
> If they are talking is Lojban, probably not.  If they are talking in
> English, especially with you involved, some will see the discussion as
> "xorlo mod 2" and then people will be asking Robin on IRC "Are you using
> xorlo mod 2 or xorlo mod 1?".

I don't share your fears, probably because of our different
experiences with the language.

You started learning Loglan when it was apparently drastically
changing every month (from what you report). You also went through a
relatively significant change in Lojban, the rafsi reallocation. I
didn't exeprience any of those things. I started learning Lojban more
than 15 years ago, and it has not changed in any significant way in
all the time I've been using it. The texts from 15 years ago are
practically indistinguishable from those of today (i.e. lots of texts
are full of errors, because they were written by beginners, but there
are also good texts  and those that were good back then are still
good).

The kind of changes you fear simply do not exist. Maybe this is thanks
to your obstinate conservatism, maybe only in part thanks to that, but
the "pull the rug under your feet" kind of changes simply don't exist.
The kind of improvements and clarifications that our discussions
usually involve are about such minute details that all your constant
talk about "relearning" sounds like complete nonsense to me.

In fact, all this nonsense about "Are you using xorlo mod 2 or xorlo
mod 1?", if it exists at all, is instigated by comments like yours,
that suggest that something of ponderous magnitude is going on that
one must learn about. I have tried to tell you in as many ways as I
can that nothing of any importance is going on, and that you can
simply tune out of the whole discussion, but you insist on claiming
that something terribly threatening is going on even though you
constantly remind us that you "don't understad xorlo", as if there was
something impossibly difficult to understand.

> That was why, ages back, I had no trouble with And Rosta setting up jboske
> as a list for such discussions as people talking about how Lojban could be
> more logical than it is, and about improvements appropriate for LoCCan3.

The issues that concern LoCCan3 should be moved someplace else, I
agree. But this discussion was about our very own "le" (identical to
Loglan's "le", and never changed) not about LoCCan3.

> Experimental cmavo are kinda the border ground between the two.  It doesn't
> necessarily harm the existing language to propose a new cmavo, put THAT is
> where the "let usage decide" is supposed to come in.  If people are
> unwilling to start using an experimental cmavo without it being prescribed,
> it probably isn't necessary, or at least not appreciated.  And it likely
> won't be appreciated with people seeing it in use and contrasted with the
> language without.  Even then, the people  who need to see it as an
> "improvement" will be those who actually use the language, which is why
> discussing it in Lojban is a strong plus.

When I respond to something written in Lojban, I use Lojban. When I
respond to something written in English, I use English. That's just
common courtesy. I don't see why discussions about Lojban in English
should be forbidden. People interested in using the language can do
so, people interested in discussing Lojban in Lojban can do so, people
interested in discussing Lojban in English can do so. (And I suppose
people interested in warning us that the end of Lojban as we know it
is near can do so as well, so I'm not really trying to censor you,
it's just another vain attempt to assuage your fears, I suppose.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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