Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof

["H. Felton" <fagricipni@gmail.com>]

On 9/10/10, Jameson Orndorff <jtorndorff@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:03 AM, H. Felton <fagricipni@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you are saying that
>> "lo cipni cu klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce"
>> should be expressed as
>> "lo cipni ku klama la bastn. ku la .atlantas. ku le dargu ku le karce ku"
>> ; ie, with *all* those "ku"s, then I disagree quite vehemently
>
> I also disagree quite vehemently, as {la .atlantas. ku}* is not
> grammatical. {ku} only works on {la} if it's taking a selbri, not if
> it's taking a cmevla. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on
> you, but this is another sort of thing we try to emphasize in our
> teaching as well. (This may also be more of a point that selbri names
> aren't well taught in the 'original method' either.)

I've done an incomplete search through The Draft Reference Grammar,
and so far the only cases where "ku" is *required* after a cmene is
when that cmene is a selbri, but I have seen no mention of the fact
that it is *prohibited* after a cmevla.  If it is then there are
other rules that I am unaware of in Lojban cmene.

The Draft Reference Grammar compares:
"mi viska la nanmu poi terpa le ke'a xirma [ku]"
{I see that-named( man which fears the of-IT horse )}
to
"mi viska la nanmu ku poi terpa le ke'a xirma"
{I see that-named( "Man" ) which fears the of-IT horse}
 -- this *is* a case where the "ku" is required, but it is of the
nature that I described above: the cmene is a selbri.  *My* problem
is that I had assumed that "la cip. poi terpa le ke'a xirma" would
mean {that-named( "cip." which fears the of-IT horse)}; ie, without
the "ku" immediately following the "cip." the "poi" expression
would become part of the cmene in that case as well.

And if it is/were required that a cmene that starts with a cmevla
end at the last cmevla in the sequence of continuous cmevla -- The
Draft Reference Grammar already gives "[la] don. kicotes." (with a
reference to the fact that the *modern* Spanish pronunciation of
"Don Quixote" would be Lojbanized differently) as an acceptable
cmene --, would that exclude writing "la me la cip. poi terpa le
ke'a xirma"? (If "me la spagetis." is a valid selbri to attach a
"poi" expression to then the inner "me la cip." should also be.)

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