Re: [lojban] Fw: xagrai and superlatives

["A. PIEKARSKI" <totus@rogers.com>]

> 
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:48 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> ko'a brodyrai ko'e (ko'i ko'o ko'u ...)
> >> = ko'a traji lo ka ce'u broda (ko'i ko'o ko'u ...) kei zi'o ko'e
> >
> > Sorry, I find this way of explaining it confusing.  Can you relate the
> > ko'a ko'e etc to the places in:
> >
> > t1=x1 traji loka xamgu x2 x3 kei t3 t4
> 
> What part do you find confusing? It's just ordinary Lojban.
> 
> The problem with your presentation is that it doesn't tell us anything
> about the order of the arguments in the lujvo. Are we to assume that
> they will appear in the lujvo in the same order as they appear in the
> expansion? If so, then to make it equivalent to mine you would have to
> write it as:
> 
>   t1=x1 traji fo t4 fe loka xamgu x2 x3 kei (t3=zi'o)
> 
Let me take you through all the steps I went through in the development
 (as for any development).  That may reveal where the problem is.

1) Record the gismu used with all their places:

x1 xamgu x2 x3
x1 (object/event) is good/beneficial/nice/[acceptable] for x2 by standard x3
 
t1 traji t2 t3 t4
t1 is superlative in property t2 (ka), the t3 extreme (ka; default ka zmadu) 
among set/range t4

2) Combine them into the most simple bridi possible

t1 traji loka x1 xamgu x2 x3 kei t3 t4

3) Create the lujvo, with the rafsi in reverse order of the order of the gismu 
in the bridi, leaving the places in the same order as in the bridi.  Reduce the 
places by combining those that have the same meaning.

t1=x1 xagrai x2 x3 t3 t4

4) Delete any places that don't make sense, or the least significant ones 
if there are too many.

t1=x1 xagrai x2 x3 t3 t4 (no change here)

5) Now, EITHER (as some lojbanists would have it) leave this as the final 
lujvo, 

t1=x1 xagrai x2 x3 t3 t4 (no change again)

OR (as others would have it), shift the remaining places so that they are 
in the order of there most common usage.

t1=x1 xagrai t4 x2 x3 t3


My original question concerned point 5).  I wanted to know if there was any 
concensus as to the best approach.  If the responses that came from you, 
geyspa and Adam represent community , then I understand the second 
approach in point 5) is the favoured one.

So my first question is: Assuming that both approoaches are valid, is there 
community concensus (or a clear majority) that this second approach (shift 
 places) to refelct usage) is the best one? For whatever reasons.

My second question was: Does the jbovlaste lujvo definition represent some 
acceptable or popular third approach?

t1=x1 is optimal in property t2 of extremity t3 among range t4.

totus

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