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Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra



.i do cusku lu ro da nanmu gi'o bruna li'u .i ku'i mi nanmu gi'enai bruna .i pe'i ro da nanmu gi'anai bruna .i simsa

mu'o mi'e latros.



On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com> wrote:
I worked on something similar to this some time ago. But I quickly
realized that we have a language that is very, very good at expressing
this sort of relationship: lojban.

With that in mind, refer you to mlismu, a random bridi generator.
Specifically, it parses a data file written in lojban that contains
relationships of the sort you're describing, and produces bridi that
match the right types.

Your "must-be" and "can-act-as" are actually flip sides of the same
coin. So instead of "x1 must-be agent", I'd say something like
.i ro bajra ka'e gasnu
(Or equivalently, the set of runners is a subset of the set of agents).

Take a look at it, particularly the fatci.txt. It's not thorough at
all, and there are some things I put in there that are known to be
false, but produced humorous results (since the whole thing started as
a joke). Hopefully, I've marked those with {je'u nai} or {zo'o}, but
some may have escaped.

http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/mlismu/

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
> Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept what sorts
> of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places."
>
> So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid
> information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include all
> the 'oblique' sumti places as well?
>
> Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would also be considered
> semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing that one can
> drink?"
>
> If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why
> shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states
> ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was referring to
> these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily point
> to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class and that
> selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of judgement
> should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With a
> vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular
> sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't have this
> resource.
>
> So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti
> position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline sensicality.
> That is, for bajra:
>
> bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4
>
> Now account for baseline sensicality:
>
> x1 must-be agent...
> x2 must-be material...
> x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part...
> x4 must-be manner...
>
> Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality tags'
> for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only these explicit
> classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of 'key
> definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can
> sensically 'fill.'
>
> x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete...
> x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface...
> x3 can-act-as body-part...
> x4 can-act-as idea...
>
> Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many
> high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred less
> frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have a
> list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list of
> sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role.
> This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) series of
> 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new
> applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degree of
> 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate
> sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate a minimal
> spanning  sensible sentence for a set of words). You could even develop a
> kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as you
> begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions could come up in
> a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that!
>
> But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set.
> Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come up with
> technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather and
> manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github.
>
> co'o mi'e korbi
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor
>> exceptions,
>> he has got it right.  So Lojban is his "other" language.  Sorry you think
>> this
>> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications of
>> Lojvan
>> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the
>> language
>> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to
>> conflict.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com>
>> To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
>> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM
>> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
>>
>> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times.
>>
>>
>> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i
>> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. For
>> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary.
>>
>> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now)
>>
>> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work,
>> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to
>> Lojban?
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Oren Robinson
> (315) 569-2888
> 102 Morrison Ave
> Somerville, MA 02144
>
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