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Re: [lojban] Regularization

I'll attempt to address your challenge.

I'm going to focus on English, because it's the language I speak best.  After a few seconds of contemplation of Russian, though, I notice that it doesn't use "if" nearly as much as English does, tending toward simple juxtaposition or words that can better be translated as "when" or "since".

"If" covers multiple concepts.  The first, rarely used in natural language, is the logical "if".  lojban's got that covered.

Another, is a weak causal implication, without stating what sort of cause.

e.g. "If you eat, then you will gain weight." implies a physical cause.

Also, "if"s with a negative hypothesis or a motivation/justification cause tend to be threatening.

e.g. "If you don't eat your meat, you won't get any pudding."

I'll think of more later.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 12:20 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Causes, motives, reasons and the like all have a formulation that involves a conditional, but mayn't conditionals occur when none of these is at issue?  If so, what else may be involved?  If not, what is the essential features of these cases that is reflected in the conditional?  The fact that Lojban generally puts causes and reason and the like into noun phrases may be a small problem here, since it is a litle hard to say what property of a noun phrase corresponds exactly to the truth of the underlying sentence.

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 11:10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization

Hmmm, that's an interesting challenge.  What is actually being expressed by "if it is cold, I will wear a coat"?  I think it is something like {da'i mu'i lo nu lenku keiku mi dasni lo kosta}.  This allows for {mi dasni lo kosta mu'inai lo nu na lenku} as well as {na lenku .ija'ebo mi na dasni lo kosta}.

I think there's a kind of lite "if" (not "iff") implied in {broda mu'i lo nu brode} because the implication is that if not for {brode} than there would be no motivation for {broda}.  That doesn't mean {na broda} of necessity.  I think it also carries the connotation that if {brode} then {broda} since {lo nu brode} is apparently sufficient motive for {broda}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:55 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
If natural language "if" is so important/useful, what exactly does it do?  Is it one thing or several different (perhaps related) things?  Consider the correct translations of a number of English "if" sentences into other languages, even those as close as French and German: are they all treated the same way, and, if not, how -- and why -- do they differ?  Until you have sorted out the factors, it is hard to say what the right way to to treat it in Lojban is.
1.  It is a conditional, so if the antecedent is true and the consequent false, the whole is false (though some fiddling need be done sometimes with exactly what the antecedent and consequent are), 
OK, Carry on!
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 10:32:32 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization

I think it can be, if {ta na mutce glare}.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one translate a natlang "if"?  It seems that lojban's logical connectives are too narrow in scope for the purpose.

Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca}, {ba}), potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be inferred from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs counterfactuallity cannot:  if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo mutce glare} be read as counterfactual?


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a good point.  If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is possible that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating that the bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi citka} is true.  I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the two pieces.  It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and that {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other.  {mi klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home".  No mu'i, ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.

(also, I think you ciska in lojban.  If you're nu citka bau la lojban then your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p )


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
 I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way",
mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
(Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g.
"... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week")  In other words, I
contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual
claim.  "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write,
but I'm writing in lojban.  Without the lojban part, the sentence just
isn't true.  If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I
don't need the money, the bridi is not true.  I am asserting "mi gunka
.ije mi nitcu lo jdini".  "va'" is no different in this regard.
           --gejyspa


On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru} "Since
> I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth of the
> condition?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
> Cc: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.  So,
>> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le birju"->
>> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it snowing,
>> I drive to the office")  "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi
>> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office".  ("in
>> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office")
>>          Clearer?
>
> A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet dinosaur"
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784
>
> Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have
> used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
> lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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