On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Ian Johnson <
blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with respect to
> counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted to
> happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were it true that ...
> then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generic; in practice it's not
> necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance languages we have different
> subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would use "si <present
> subjunctive> <indicative>" for the non-counterfactual case and "si
> <imperfect subjunctive> <indicative>" for the counterfactual case. How can
> Lojban make this distinction?
>
> mu'o mi'e .latros.
>
> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Michael Turniansky <
mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I know you were ostensibly responding to Luke, but if you were
>> responding in fact to me, I was saying that va'o da'i IS the way to
>> translate the natlang "if" (in the sense we've been discussing), but
>> that va'o by itself is not.
>> --gejyspa
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <
rpglover64@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > If {va'o} and {va'o da'i} are not the way to do it, how else would one
>> > translate a natlang "if"? It seems that lojban's logical connectives
>> > are
>> > too narrow in scope for the purpose.
>> >
>> > Furthermore, it seems odd to me that while place , time ({pu}, {ca},
>> > {ba}),
>> > potentiality {{ca'a}, {ka'e}, etc), and contour/aspect can all be
>> > inferred
>> > from context (at least as I understood the CLL), factuallity vs
>> > counterfactuallity cannot: if the statement {ta jelca} can mean either
>> > "that is on fire" or "that is flammable", why can't {ta jelca va'o lo
>> > mutce
>> > glare} be read as counterfactual?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Luke Bergen <
lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> That's a good point. If I say {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} it is
>> >> possible
>> >> that there is causality baked in just via the fact that I'm stating
>> >> that the
>> >> bridi {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} is true and NOT NECESSARILY that {mi
>> >> citka} is true. I wasn't asking specifically about {ri'a} vs {mu'i} vs
>> >> etc... I was just asking if there was a causal connection between the
>> >> two
>> >> pieces. It very well COULD be that {mi citka ba lo nu mi xagji} and
>> >> that
>> >> {mi citka} and {mi xagji} only happen to come one after the other. {mi
>> >> klama lo zdani ba lo nu mi pilno lo skami} doesn't necessarily imply
>> >> anything other than "after I used the computer, I went home". No mu'i,
>> >> ri'a, ni'i, etc... in that.
>> >> (also, I think you ciska in lojban. If you're nu citka bau la lojban
>> >> then
>> >> your mom didn't teach you very good table manners =p )
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> >> <
mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I would argue (and my opinion isn't necessarily the "one true way",
>> >>> mind you) that yeah it makes a factual claim, as does the main bridi.
>> >>> (Although I might simply phrase it "Having a pet dinosaur,...." (e.g.
>> >>> "... I go through a lot of Bronto Chow in week") In other words, I
>> >>> contend that with all BAI/FI'O constructions, you are making a factual
>> >>> claim. "Mi citka bau la lojban" I am not just claiming that I write,
>> >>> but I'm writing in lojban. Without the lojban part, the sentence just
>> >>> isn't true. If I say "mi gunka ki'u lo nu mi nitcu lo jdini", if I
>> >>> don't need the money, the bridi is not true. I am asserting "mi gunka
>> >>> .ije mi nitcu lo jdini". "va'" is no different in this regard.
>> >>> --gejyspa
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:05 AM, John E Clifford
>> >>> <
kali9putra@yahoo.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > Taking all that into account is {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o
>> >>> > dinsauru} "Since
>> >>> > I have a pet dinosaur" or is it merely indeterminate as to the truth
>> >>> > of
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > condition?
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> >>> > From: Remo Dentato <
rdentato@gmail.com>
>> >>> > To:
lojban@googlegroups.com
>> >>> > Cc: Michael Turniansky <
mturniansky@gmail.com>
>> >>> > Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:20:14 AM
>> >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Regularization
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Michael Turniansky
>> >>> > <
mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> Counterfactual meaning not as things are, but as they might be.
>> >>> >> So,
>> >>> >> for example "va'o lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi ma'ekla le
>> >>> >> birju"->
>> >>> >> "I drive to the office in the snow" ("in the situation of it
>> >>> >> snowing,
>> >>> >> I drive to the office") "va'o da'i lo nu lo snime cu carvi kei mi
>> >>> >> ma'ekla le birju" -> "if it snows, I will drive to the office".
>> >>> >> ("in
>> >>> >> the theoretical situation of it snowing, I drive to the office")
>> >>> >> Clearer?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > A little bit. I guess that in the translation of "if I had a pet
>> >>> > dinosaur"
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=784
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Instead of {va'o lonu mi ponse lo dalpe'o dinsauru}) I should have
>> >>> > used {va'o da'i lonu mi ponse
>> >>> > lo dalpe'o dinsauru}
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
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>> >
>> > --
>> > Alex R
>> >
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